Old medical books may too serve a lesson... of what not to do.
Good point. The OT is a testament to what not to do and what gods not to follow.
non believers what if your wrong ?
by unstopableravens 546 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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caliber
The arguments that this god allowed brutality in order to accomodate brutal humans falls flat too. Just who was supposed to be in charge?
Satan is
"the god of this system of things." (2 Corinthians 4:4) -
cofty
Then you are admitting your god is impotent.
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NewChapter
Then you are admitting your god is impotent.
Thanks, Cofty. It adds to my point. These arguments are an admission. The 'god of this system of things' is even allowed to mislead God's own people. That is quite impotent.
(Sorry, not trying to hijack your point as merely someting to add to my argument, I just like how concise you are)
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caliber
For the twin horns hee hee hee
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient
I prefer the term forbearance over impotence
- Patient self-control; restraint and tolerance.
- The action of refraining from exercising a legal right, esp. enforcing the payment of a debt.
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cofty
Patience for what reason? Can you suggest what may have been acomplished by your god's indolence during the 2 thousand years since that was written?
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smmcroberts
Caliber: Old medical books may too serve a lesson... of what not to do.
Is it then your contention that this is how Christians regard the OT? As an example of what not to do? For example: don't trust the priests who tell you that God says you must sacrifice animals for your sins, and don't trust prophets who tell you to kill, rape, and pillage? Then when Jesus says we must observe the Law, that must be the hand of a dishonest or extremely careless scribe at work?
I don't think most Christians view it that way (the JWs certainly don't). But if you do, then I would suggest that this is yet another example of your own empathy choosing which parts of the Bible are good examples and which parts serve as examples of what not to do. Once again empathy trumps revelation! It shows that revelation was never the source of our morals. But it is when the reverse happens (revelation trumping empathy) that atrocities are committed. One such example was when the Europeans massacred the indigenous people of the Americas, using the examples in the OT as their moral justification -- too bad they didn't know the OT was an example of what not to do.
PS: whoever shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire."
That is a long way from saying "SHALL BURN IN HELL FIRE".
add to that, that Jesus was speaking of believers dealing with believers ( Brothers)Didn't Jesus teach that all men were brothers? In any case, the heretics the Catholics tortured were believers. They just believed slightly differently on some technical points (such as if god were one or three persons, or whether they should dispense with the OT.)
Of course, as we well know, Jesus also reputedly spoke of a rich man (not necessarily a believer) "burning" in the flames of hell. Again, I'm all too familiar with the spin we were taught to put on such things to "save face" for Christianity [I gave that spiel myself enough times]. But now that I am no longer an apologist for Christianity I must admit that anyone reading the NT for themselves could easily and honestly come to the conclusion that people who did not believe "correctly" in the magic formula for salvation would be suffering eternally in the afterlife. From that they could conclude that the loving thing to do would be to force heretics to endure temporary pain in this life (via the rack or the iron-maiden, etc.) in order to get them to ascribe to the belief that would save them from eternal torture. You see? It's a perfect example of subverted empathy caused by belief in the supernatural.
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NewChapter
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient
I prefer the term forbearance over impotence
- Patient self-control; restraint and tolerance.
- The action of refraining from exercising a legal right, esp. enforcing the payment of a debt.
Touch the ark of the covenant, get struck dead immediately. Build a golden calf, immediate death. Bury some treasure---quick death. Lie about profit for a field, immediate death sentence. Take a census? Immediate death for thousands innocent of the deed. Plague.
Rape, murder, starvation, war, torture, oppression---self-control, restraint and tolerance.
Falls flat for me!
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Finkelstein
Here's an interesting discussion mostly concerning Christianity with Richard Dawkins on the panel.
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tec
I think it is impossible for us, on our own (even scholars and experts, etc) to look at the OT and know what is supposed to be literal, figurative... what could have been a literary device or 'slang' of the time... what might have been mistranslated. To make a determination about God based on these writings alone... is very inaccurate and untrustworthy to me.
For those who call themselves Christian... who follow and belong to Christ... there is only one 'place' to look for the Truth of God. His Image, Word, and Truth: Christ. (So not a place, but a whom.) If you can see Him, then you can see God. Looking back at the OT writings, and using them to understand Christ... is... well, backward. If you have to look at the OT writings, then at the very least look at Christ to understand those writings. You do this, and all those scriptures that show a God that Christ also showed us, will start popping out at you. The ones some might ignore in favor of those that show the 'tyrant'.
Of course you could JUST look at Christ... instead of looking back (as Lot's wife did) and getting trapped under/blinded by the law all over again. This makes the most sense to me. Seek and know Him first... then all else will come.
Chirst is Truth. Simple. See Christ; See God.
If anything is in conflict with Him and His teachings (all of which came from His Father), then either you misunderstand something that is written; those who wrote it down (or re-wrote/translated) misundestood what is written; it is NOT showing God, and so is wrong; or it is something that was given to the people because they could do no better ("Moses gave you this law (divorce) because your hearts were hard; but it was not this way from the beginning). This is why the law was written on stone tablets, their hearts were too hard. If you think that is ironic (hearts being harder than stone tablets), then consider that it is so for a reason; to show just how hard their hearts were.
For some, I realize that looking at Christ is not enough; perhaps because they do not believe in Him. Perhaps because an inerrant collection of books and witness testimony leaves them to dismiss all of it. But even for these people, there is something to use to measure, and that is love. That is something that we can all 'grasp', with or without the bible to depend upon. (Though some of us might convince ourselves that love means different things. But what can you do? Some people will twist anything so that they can justify anything they want or have done, to themselves.)
Same thoughts apply though: if something written about God is not from love, then you are misunderstanding, those who wrote it are misunderstanding, or it is untrue.
Peace,
tammy