non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens 546 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  PSacramento

  But PS, wasn't the Old Law and OT given from god himself? Why would something god devised be in need of redemption?

  Any Law God gave to Man was filterd THROUGH Man, and man is fallen and in need of redemption.

  Jeremiah warns about the alterating of the Law by the scribes in Jeremiah 8 and even Ezekiel comments that because of How the Hebrews were, "God" gave them "laws" that were not good as punishment.

  It seems that with all of creation being in need of redemption, the bible would fall into that category too and redemption came in Christ and His teachings.

  Is it useless? No. Is it perfect, the bible itself gives warning that only God is perfect.

  The purpose of the bible is to point to the fact that Man is in need of redemption and the bible makes that clear as we read the Good, the bad and the ugly of it.

  It does however POINT the way to redemption In Christ and in that it is just like creation, not perfect but perhaps "good enough" ?
• 

  PSacramento

  The whole thing I took from reading the Bible.............

  try not to be a dick. If you cannot not help being a dick, do better. You can try to do better 77 times, after that you are just a dick.

  There is no need to insult Richard, He's a cool dude ;)
• 

  smmcroberts

  Jesus never preached "hell fire" for unbeleivers, but warned of eternal punishment for those that rejected the HS.

  "whoever shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire."
  
  I know: as JW's we were taught how to spin around the whole hell-fire thing, but in retrospect, and having just read the Jefferson Bible recently, it seems like Jesus was really into the literal flames of hell. We just don't want to believe it, yet want to keep the "good parts" of what Jesus said, so we "explain away" everything else.

  The Catholics in the middle-ages unfortunately didn't have the WT publications, so they read about Jesus talking about hell-fire and they took it literally and tortured heretics to keep them from being burned by their loving god for eternity. Christianity, as a religion which regards the Bible as its source-book, must bear some responsibility for what it appears to plainly state.

  We can't honestly fault the Catholics for assuming Jesus meant what he said. Where we can fault them (and all religions) is for letting supernatural nonsense over-ride inherent empathy. It's long past the time that humankind needs to stop doing that.
• 

  caliber

  But we've thrown away (or stuck in museums) these old medical books. No one is suggesting that we should use them as guidebooks today. No one believes they were divinely inspired or that they are in harmony with the latest medical books.

  If you're suggesting we treat the OT the same way, then we are in agreement!

  Old medical books may too serve a lesson... of what not to do.

  books on say nuclear accidents and experiments can be a learning tool too !

  however I would suggest that we focus less on old Testament for sure.

  I have heard that many of Josef Mengele experments with twins have helped with medical things today such as in the field of genetics.

  The notorious doctor of Auschwitz, Josef Mengele, has become an enigma of the twentieth century

  but I wouldn't suggest that we repeat or praise to highly the tests he performed or give him too much credit for things learned from them
• 

  PSacramento

  We just don't want to believe it, yet want to keep the "good parts" of what Jesus said, so we "explain away" everything else.

  Its a tendency we all have, beleiver and non-beleiver alike, proof-texting and all that.

  That is why it is crucial to get the WHOLE of the message from ALL of the writings about Jesus and NOT just a few verses that speak to what we THINK they say.

  How we are to treat our enemies and persecuters is spelled out quite clearly in Matthew 5.

  As for your verse:

  whoever shall say Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire."

  That is a long way from saying "SHALL BURN IN HELL FIRE".

  add to that, that Jesus was speaking of believers dealing with believers ( Brothers):

  Personal Relationships

  21 “ (Z) You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘ (AA) You shall not commit murder ’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to (AB) the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before (AC) the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before (AD) the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the (AE) fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are (AF) presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be (AG) reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 (AH) Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, (AI) you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
• 

  MrFreeze

  See, that's my point PS. It was "filtered through man", so if you can't trust one thing it says, why can you trust anything that it says? When someone lies to you, do you find it easy to trust them?
• 

  PSacramento

  Even modern medicne has its skeletons in the closet, lets not forget the syhpills "research" done on Blacks in Tuskegee
• 

  PSacramento

  See, that's my point PS. It was "filtered through man", so if you can't trust one thing it says, why can you trust anything that it says? When someone lies to you, do you find it easy to trust them?

  You take something for what it is and not what you want it to be.

  Nature is not perfect and is quite dangerous too, but we learn from it and take it for what it is and not what it isn't.
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  unstopableravens

  i do believe that jesus taught a literal hellfire weather you believe in the bible or not its still a bible teaching
• 

  NewChapter

  I must confess that I am NOT one of them.

  That's good to know. And it is kind of a good point too. When these things were written, it was a reflection of the culture, not a god. To call it the inerrant word of a god is to argue that a god was behind it. But it makes much more sense to just accept it was the culture, and most, not all, of humankind has moved past that. To argue that it is the word of a god is to say that your morals are higher than the god portrayed. I'm grateful for that, and hope that more people become more moral (by today's and even tomorrow's standards) than the god portrayed. A loving, all powerful, all wise god would not be a victim of a culture, nor would it be swayed by such. If it existed, it would say this is the way it should be, and YOU need to change, not my law. And it would be moral, and it would strike all of us as moral. And it would be right, and we would all know it. And this god would not allow itself to be misrepresented so badly.

  Arguments that culture was different falls flat when coming from a bible literalist. It's an admission that the culture created the god rather than the god that created the culture. It's an admission that it was made up. Yet somehow, this fact just doesn't penetrate.

  The arguments that this god allowed brutality in order to accomodate brutal humans falls flat too. Just who was supposed to be in charge? Just who was supposed to have the right answers? And it goes beyond accomodating, and into the law that demanded brutality. If this is a real god speaking, then you cannot also argue that this god is loving and wise. If it is just the writing of humans, then it is a study in a long ago culture. The tragedy is when there are those that insist we still live by the standards of a culture that should be left in the past.