non believers what if your wrong ? (page 38)

cofty

Anyone in particular come to mind?

hmmmm? Its been a long, long time since I opened a bible - I will give it some thought.

NewChapter

new chapter thats ur thoughts mine are completly different. since i do believe in sin cofty im thankful for what was done for me.

Exactly. I was just stating, in the same absolute terms as you, my interpretation of the story. You said it does not change the facts---and I said the same.

PS, I never said you were a Rapture person. I'm saying the thought that the believers will not be judged, but the believers will be judged on works is not that unusual. It comes through in different contexts, but when you boil it down, you share this is common with the Rapture people. Believers are spared judgement and saved by grace. Non-believers don't benefit from grace but will be judged on their works.

unstopableravens

cofty in my own words you mean i cant copy and paste. okay first he gave me the enviroment needed to live he gave me life, the air that i need to breath. basic things that would be impossible with out him. since i have sinned broken gods law i am accountable for that he however had those sins paid for by his son. those are my words lol

cofty

he however had those sins paid for by his son

OK good start.

Now can you expand on that phrase above? Its a well known piece of christian rhetoric but what does it mean in reality?

unstopableravens

well what i believe is that when a person is born again they have there sins wiped away romans 6:7 (not the way the wt misuses this verse) so i guess you can compare it to a debt that is owed that you can not pay yourselfso you paid it for me. thats why i believe that it is so bad for a person to die in there sin because it is not covered by jesus (john 8:24)

cofty

OK I'm not trying to be awkward here but ....

You say that " you can compare it to a debt that is owed that you can not pay yourself so you paid it for me "

You still haven't explained what that means. Imagine you are talking to somebody who has never heard the gospel.

Can you explain simply what Jesus dying on the cross has to do with me being forgiven for sins, and can you do that without using any christian cliches?

unstopableravens

well if your asking me to tell you how christ death pays for my sin i cant say honestly i know exactly how jesus death itself pays the debt like what the death itself does for god to say ok now its payed. i will have to think about that .i think i know what ur asking maybe im not

cofty

Yes that is my question.

Because we hear the same phrases repeated many times since infancy we tend not to think about them.

So when you say that your sins were paid for by Jesus' death its essential you understand precisely what you mean. You need to join the dots in a way you can explain to somebody who has never heard the cliches.

The clue is in my post 5591 on page 18.

sizemik

it must be very difficult to make it fit with a straightforward reading of Paul's letters. . . . cofty

Good point that . . . Paul described it as an inner nature, that went against his desire to do what's right, rather than a conscious defiance of moral standards.

In that context . . . Christ's sacrifice is atoning for something in which choice and free will is absent.

An inherited defect is just that . . . it's like asking a cripple to feel guilty for being born with no legs.

Anyone in particular come to mind? . . . PSac

Romans 7

unstopableravens

cofty i agree with phrases lose there meaning when we here them over and over. and yes i know what the bible says about the shedding of blood and everything. i guess it comes down to if we can have faith that all of gods ways are just because we can look at it and think that seems so inhuman . we have to also keep in mind christ was not forced to go through that we offerd himself willingly

non believers what if your wrong ?

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