by mP 302 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Is there a reason why you think people of different life expereinces, people of different backgrounds, people with different understandings and goals in life, would hear the same message with the same details in the same way at the same time ?
Absolutely the message should be the same if it is THE truth. Otherwise it's what's called "just what you are saying".
soontobe, our modern obsession with citation, accuracy, and copyright just didn't exist back then. Josephus cheerfully included legends and tales in his history collected from itnerant travellers. He just didn't have the resources or inclination to validate his findings like we do today.
Jewish children were raised on stories passed on to each generation. If one storyteller embellished a bit, does it change the essence of the tale? I see the same creativity with young children when I read them a story-book. Some children want it re-told the same way every time (charmed by the rhythms of the storyteller), and others take over at some point and make their own story. People have lived with inconsistencies from time immemorial (unless they were being cheated at dice).
Fundamentalists have taken all the charm out of these stories. By insisting they are literal, accurate, inerrant, they fall in to the modern trap and lose all the art.
Fundamentalists have taken all the charm out of these stories.
Its sad that the word myth has taken on purely negative connotations in the minds of modern fundamentalists. There are some wonderful myths in the bible that are both entertaining and have some merit.
The book of Jonah is my favourite example. The fish was just an amusing detail, the real miracle was the wholesale repentance of Nineveh. It was like saying that a pastor walked through the streets of Kandahar and all the Taliban threw down their guns and put on WWJD bracelets. The point of the story is xenophobia. Jonah cared more about the demise of a tree than the destruction of a city.
In the horrible zeal of post-exile Judea it was a wonderful piece of protest literature. Fundamentalists destroy its message by arguing about big fish.
The book of Ruth is a similar example where a Moabitess was more faithful than her Jewish sisters-in-law and became an ancestor of David.
I sometimes think that it possible as an atheist to have more respect for the bible than fundi christians have.
I agree with you, jgnat.
And you too, Cofty.
From what I understand, the book of Jonah is one of the earliest examples of humor and satire in literature.
I also think Job is a great book. It questions why life is unfair, and why there is suffering even for moral people. It furnishes no answers to these questions. It is left as a mystery.
There’s a lady in town who paints her spirit-dreams. It is never too late to pick it up, tec. I started when my children were teenagers and I needed to re-assert my identity.
I may one day. Those paintings from that lady must be fantastic.
Evidence for Godthread
Something [you] heard from our Lord (Inner message broadcast to all humanity)
Okay. The evidence for God thread was my personal testimony, and evidence that I see, that built my faith. I did not share it as a statement that this is what another person must accept. I just put it out there. My personal testimony. (someone had asked me for it too, I think)
The other one was something that i was given (a correlation that I was allowed to see) that i wanted to share. But again, I shared it for those who would be interested. I did not share it to make someone else believe it, or for those who don't care.
I cannot recall something that has been given me that is not also supported by something outside of me... such as the bible… - tec
I am sure you have stated that you do not believe that the bible is inerrant, and that your testimony and your guide is the spirit of Christ. So you pick and chose which verses match your inner testimony. This is internal and cannot be validated by others.
I have stated that. We know the bible is not inerrant, because we know people can change or alter verses. We all know that from what the wts has done.
I do not think that means the bible has no worth. There are various testimonies and witnesses given to Christ in the bible, and there is also inspired writings. When looking at the bible though, Christ comes first... for truth... and all else second. So that if something is in conflict with Him (and He teaches love), then it is wrong, or perhaps it is understood wrong.
I have noted a tendency for you to avoid any words or thoughts that have a negative connotation, like “reject”. These hard, dark words I am sure, don’t match the inner ideal you strive for. Yet, you have quite confidently rejected certain scriptures or interpretations as not from Christ.
I don't have a problem with rejecting something, but I do not like the words being used in connotation with what feels like my personal approval. I am not the One who matters; I am not the One who is the Life. I can't do any more than point toward that one.
I truly, honestly, follow... he who is not against you is for you. Someone is showing love, mercy, forgivness, peace (regardless of their faith in Christ or another, or their non-faith)... that person is not against me. Why would I have the right to be against them? Why would I even BE against that person at all?
But lets say that someone says... God hates f*gs. I would have NO problem rejecting that and their claim about God. Or someone telling people that they are going to hell to burn... say for being atheist, or homosexual, or whatever else some people out there say. I would have no problem using hard, dark word of rejection against such things either. If someone said that a certain peaceful person who is perhaps a member of Islam (not popular among some right now and given a blanket designation of evil by some), is all sorts of awful things, I would also reject that. (You are right that i do not 'like' it, because i prefer just to do as I am called to do, and leave others to their own masters, whomever/whatever that might be. But sometimes i am called to speak against a lie being told about God, that harms and turns people from Him. I, in fact, choose to speak against such lies out of love for Christ and God, and those who seek them.)
If someone simply has a doctrinal difference, or a different understanding on some details (like appearance); but still shows love, peace, mercy, forgivness... and both loves and follows the teachings of Chrsit... then what business are they of mine?
I see that you give the apologist’s explanation of the selected words of Christ. Even though he used hard, dark words, you have reconciled that there is no conflict. I’ll give another example.
Okay. I did have to see it in action, such as the examples I gave, to understand though.
In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; he also saw dealers at tables exchanging foreign money. Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers’ coins over the floor, and turned over their tables. Then, going over to the people who sold doves, he told them, “Get these things out of here. Stop turning my Father’s house into a marketplace!” John 2:14-16 NLT
Are you asking me if I think that happened. I do think so. I have not asked about it to receive understanding. But the above seems like strong action, strong words, strong rejection... of that which abuses the name of His Father and those He loves, and turned something that is supposed to help even the least of his brothers... into an abomination and abuse instead.
Peace,
tammy
Outside the bible, but imaginative, the Sumerian Debate between Bird and Fish. (3rd millenium BC).
This was a long read, and a head scratcher. Agree with Cofty and jgnat I think. You simply can't pick and choose your verses. That's not logical. Either you take it or you chunk it.
Thank you so much Tec...you have just shown to us the futility in belief! You really did it with excellence! It is really good to have you herat this site. :-)
Lol ;)
You shouldn't be looking at me for your faith to begin with. If you want to see God, then look at the One He sent: His Son.
Peace,
tammy
I have been pretty consistent at describing your beliefs as being personal, internal, tec. The issue with the evidence thread is internal, personal validation is not acceptable evidence....for a skeptic. It's re-purposing of a word and is of no value in logical discourse.
That message from the Lord, which you humbly served as intermediary, included a threat for those who would not listen. No way for outsiders to confirm its veracity.
I like figs.
