How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.

by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  DD:

  According to the New Testament (if you want the scriture references see the list Christ Alone provided earlier in this thread), this is one of many ways in which Jesus “fulfills” the Law of Moses or Torah.

  You may not agree with me (that's fine), but, that's how I believe Jesus fulfills "THE LAW OF MOSES".

  MP:

  You are free to believe what you want, thats fine, but look how flimsy your argument is. Stop telling me what you believe and show me the facts. Go check a dictionary what "believe" actually means. Its quite a disappointing word to use because it shows you have no rational reason to support a point of view. By this definition you have admitted you cant actually prove that assertion in this case from the BIble which is your authority.

  How exactly is such a fundamental thought not found in the BIble ?
  Why cant you find a single line in Moses that actually says this ?

  The simple answer is of course most likely the correct one(occums razor). The jews dont believe in this claim about Jesus because the law of Moses doesnt say or mention this requirement about sin debt.

  If you want find a scripture. Its going to be hard because.

  - Jesus is never mentioned in the OT, simply because the jews were not aware of him.

  - There is no son of god in the OT, because that idea was invented by the gospel writers.

  - There is no mention of a perfect messiah. All messiahs in the OT are men who are bigger than life and are made special by some high office like king or priest.
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  mP

  MyELAIN

  dear mP...

  the point of mark 2:6-7 is that the jews knew only God could forgive sins. their argument wasn't about the fact that Jesus hadn't died and been resurrected yet to forgive sins.

  Jesus had the authority to forgive sins because He WAS God in the flesh not because He died and was resurrected.

  MP:

  But Mark 2 was about a time before Jesus died. You have completely skiped commentating on my reply where I show without doubt, that there is no ressurrection in Mark. Jesus never walks amongst us again.

  If Jesus could forgive sins then your chrirstian claim about the requirement for him to die to forgive sins is wrong.

  MYELAINE

  In Christ (after His death and resurrection) there is no distinction between jew and gentile because at His death, for the jew, His shed blood was the final sacrifice for the covering over of sins (any one of the 613 that weren't observed to the letter) to gain the forgiveness of God. For gentiles (without the 613 laws) His shed blood covered over all sins that were committed against man and God. (without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin hebrews 9:22)

  whether jew or gentile, sins are not forgiven until they are covered over. that is why in the jewish system you brought asacrifice to God for forgiveness. psalm 32:1-2

  MP:

  What has this got to do with my asserion that a perfect death to pay for sin is not found in Moses ? Im not questioning the targetted group that Christians believe he died for. Please focus on the original assertion by me and stop introducing stuff and answer ing questions that i have never asked.

  WHy are you quoting Paul and Psalms, but never quote Moses which you claim isyour authority on the law ?

  MYELAINE

  Jesus, by forgiving the sins of both the jews and the gentiles who believed in Him fulfilled God's side of the law(without doing away with one jot or tittle of the jewish law). That is why I quoted mark 2:6-7 "only God can forgive sins"...that is how Jesus fulfilled or put into action the law.

  MP:

  Again your telling me what you believe, you completely ignore my replies.

  We can talk about a thousand things about Jesus but your not actually addressing the original question. Dont pretend that telling me other stuff answers me.

  In the end its fine to believe that Jesus forgives sin, but DO NOT LIE AND PRETEND HE FULFILLS THE LAW.. because he doesnt. Be honest.

  MYELAINE

  In a court of law it is one against another but the law isn't fulfilled or enacted until the judge judges and calls down the sentence.

  love michelle

  MP:

  Precisely, and considering you are making the claim , your the one who needs to quote Moses . You have failed to compeltely. If you want to continue this discussion please attempt to quote Moses, otherwise your completely off topic and Jesus loveins get boring fast, especially when they are lies.
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  mP

  -> MyElaine try http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/249101/1/Jesus-Christ-and-OT-prophecies

  Focus on just the prophecies i have rebuked, after that feel free to select prophecies that you feel were fulfilled.
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  humbled

  This may or may not be of interest to mP or anyone else who has followed this discussion--The recently published book by Danel Boyarin is called "The Jewish Gospels". Even a reading the reviews on Amazon will help the discussion along by showing that the Jews were expecting someone to come (even John the Baptist sent off from prison asking to know if Jesus was the one expected). The prophet Daniel at 7:13--and on alludes to the Son of Man's coming. Of course Jesus often refered to himself as the son of man.

  Anyhow......I thought it might be of interest. It is not a long book and written very well by a scholar of the Talmud.
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  mP

  @humbled: i will take a look thanks.

  I havent yet looked at your link.

  However the jews have always been waiting for someone, because they have often been squashed by a larger nation. THey are unlucky being in the cross rods of some very powerful neighbours. In fact if you go back 150 years you will hear that the Macabees were the messiah and 100 years after christ, the same was said of the Bar Kochba (sp) rebellion. Wanting God to help you and gain freedom from foreigners can be found many times in the BIble. Isaiah claimed inthe same in that chapter xians use to claim Marys virgin brith was a prophecy and that was 700 years before and the enemy that time was the assyrians.
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  Deputy Dog

  mP

  You are free to believe what you want, thats fine, but look how flimsy your argument is. Stop telling me what you believe and show me the facts. Go check a dictionary what "believe" actually means. Its quite a disappointing word to use because it shows you have no rational reason to support a point of view. By this definition you have admitted you cant actually prove that assertion in this case from the BIble which is your authority.

  I’m admitting nothing of the sort, I’m attempting to give you what YOU asked for, (though it probably was a fool’s errand). There are many more, some in the Torah, many in other parts of the OT and in the NT. For example, Jesus is MY Passover lamb from Exodus, offered once for all.

  Since you claimed you don’t believe in Moses writings anyway. I should leave you (and Rambam) with some of the words Jesus gave the Jewish leaders of his day.

  John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John, for the works which the Father has given Me that I should finish them, the works which I do themselves witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape. 38 And you do not have His Word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, 40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me. If another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, you who receive honor from one another and do not seek the honor that comes from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you, Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My Words?
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  myelaine

  dear mP...

  you said: "But Mark 2 was about a time before Jesus died. You have completely skiped commentating on my reply where I show without doubt, that there is no ressurrection in Mark. Jesus never walks amongst us again.

  If Jesus could forgive sins then your chrirstian claim about the requirement for him to die to forgive sins is wrong."...

  under the jewish system the sacrifice was required in order for sins to be covered for those sins to be forgiven. Jesus provided the sacrificial blood to cover the sins that they might be forgiven. the final sacrifice for those jews who accepted Him as the Lamb of God and for the gentiles as the propitiation for their sins too, otherwise the gentile sins would remain uncovered and therefore unforgiven. Without His shed blood those sins of the gentiles would not be forgiven by God...only the jewish system of sacrifices would be recognised by God and the gentiles would remain outside of any redemption...when the wrath of God against sin (the judges judgeing) comes they would be "without God and hope in the world".

  The christian claim about the Messiahship of Jesus and all that He accomplished on the cross for the jew and the gentile wasn't immediately known before Jesus went to His death...(they were surely disappointed when they asked if Jesus was going to restore israel to them at that time; acts 1:6) ...He told His disciples what was about to take place but they didn't know the significance to what was happening until AFTER after His death and resurrection and the Holy Spirit brought everything He had said to their rememberance.(acts 2:23) At that point they were given the revelation of what He accomplished and the OT prophecies and the temple sacrificial system were shown to the apostles to be a forshadow of the "things" to come...

  All the things that were written in the OT by inspiration of the Holy Spirit about the suffering servant and all things written about a King redeemer (things that were written but weren't understood at the time of writing; these things indicated something was going to happen but at what time and in what MANNER, they didn't know)were shown by revelation of the Holy Spirit to be about Jesus who was the victorious King who suffered to redeem. At the revelation of these mysteries THEN the christain message of redemption in Christ was proclaimed...not before.

  Jesus could forgive the sins of the jew (who He was ministering to in mark 2) under the sacrificial system before He was put to death and shed His blood because those jews would as a work of their faith bring a sacrifice at the prescribed time to have those sins covered over. even His disciples continued to observe the sacrificial system until everything was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit which happened AFTER they observed the required passover.

  for the jew under their sacrificial system God didn't have to die to forgive sins...Jesus could forgive their sin knowing that under their system they would be making a sacrifice to cover their sins. that's why being God in the flesh, He could forgive their sins...but to include the gentiles (in the plan of redemption) who didn't have a sacrificial system HE Himself provided the sacrifice...therefore also fulfilling the promises of God to abraham that provided for all people to be blessed who believed in his God.

  love michelle
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  myelaine

  the entire the law...all 613 points of it were written as a tutor to show how to walk in righteousness before a holy God...no one could keep all those points of the law and so a sacrifice was required to cover over all the times a jew missed the mark (sinned)...All God had to do to enact or fulfill the law was to forgive those sins...and that is what Jesus did...being God, He forgave those sins and fulfilled the law.

  Jehovah God is named as the One to have forgiven sins in the torah. Jesus is God the Son with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit; Jehovah.

  love michelle
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  mP

  MyElaine,

  I know how the Jewish religious system worked, but your summary is reasonably complete for hte purposes of our discussion.

  I will now try and reply to your last paragraph which i note does not mention Moses once. It would seem you are having a real problem finding a single scripture in Moses or the OT to back any of your beliefs. Please dont lecture to me if you cant point to the BIble. I am asking for Bible quotations not christian theology, that is the point of my challenge.

  There are many many scriptures that say the law of Moses will last forever because it is perfect.

  http://bible.cc/psalms/119-160.htm

  New International Version (©2011) All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. New Living Translation (©2007) The very essence of your words is truth; all your just regulations will stand forever. English Standard Version (©2001) The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever. New American Standard Bible (©1995) The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. Shin. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

  If a law is perfect and going to last forever then to say it will be altered significantly is a contradiction. You cant have it both ways. On the other hand the OT is consistant on this thought. There are literally dozens maybe hundreds of scriptures that say the same. Even jesus said the same in Mat 5:17.

  There is no provision in Moses writing or anywhere in the OT that says the law will cease or be replaced or altered in anyway.

  However you cant find a single one that says the law will change and a guy called Jesus who is the messiah will come along and change things. You cant find Jesus name or position even mentioned once. There is something seriously wrong with your belief system, either the narration is completely broken, or perhaps somebody is lying.

  Why is that ? Its a very simple answer, your Christian position is not found in the OT.
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  mP

  MYELAINE

  \\he entire the law...all 613 points of it were written as a tutor to show how to walk in righteousness before a holy God...no one could keep all those points of the law and so a sacrifice was required to cover over all the times a jew missed the mark (sinned)...All God had to do to enact or fulfill the law was to forgive those sins...and that is what Jesus did...being God, He forgave those sins and fulfilled the law.

  MP:

  Really so rape and slavery are righetous ? Are you sure the law is really from god or did some men make it up ?

  I know where and what the law was about, however again you fail to show the provision where it says if a perfect man comes along then this part of the law is over. Thats how laws work you write thigns down in detail. There are a lot of details in Moses law, but not once is there a mention of the Christian claim about jesus coming along.

  Show me the scriptures.

  Michelle

  Jehovah God is named as the One to have forgiven sins in the torah. Jesus is God the Son with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit; Jehovah.

  MP:

  Jesus is not mentioned anywhere in the OT, nor is the holy spirit that makes 2/3 of your statement completely wrong. Show me where Jesus is mentioned by name aka Jesus, title Messiah or Gods son etc.

  This is not an answer this is yet again Christian dogma that is mostly not backed at all by the OT. It would appear that hte OT god is not compatible with your christian thoughts or is at best a completely different entity.

  Please if your going to make a statement at least try and find a scripture to back it up. Theres really no need to repeat such sayings, we all know them, the point is they are not true.

  YOu are making a precise claim about Jesus death and sacrifice but you cant find a single scripture.