jhine: Feel free to reply if you wish to contnue this conversation. Im not interested in a lecture about xian theology, because i think we all know what that tells, the actual point is , can this be found in the bible ?
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jhine
mp , as you will just say that any evidence presented is wilully misconstrued by Christians or plain outright lies , I see no further point in trying to debate , only to be called names . You have obviously made up your mind on the subject and are not wanting to budge . O.k. that is your God given right and bless you that you have certainties to hold onto , many do not . Am I allowed to ask if you have any religious background by which you judge the beliefs of others ? I do not in any way wish to give offence , I feel that I must walk on eggshells now , but as I said before am curious as to where you come from in your views . It is fairly obvious that I am a Trinitarian believing Christian , and I make no appologies for that . I feel that you know much more about me than I know about you .
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mP
JHINE:
I gave my position previously that xians claim to follow the BIble but they often fail when challenged to show the text that backs their pov. The only reason i used "liar" is because claiming some text says one thing when obviously says soemthing else is "lying". If you wish to believe for another reason thats fine, but dont go about stating that ist from the bible and then pointing tos ome scripture.
Well regarding my background. I guess im the sort of person thats very simple. I try and be very exact in my work and htats part of my personality. When i read text in any form, i judge it for what it says exactly, not a word more or less. If it its supposed to have a different meaning then it had better be changed. Because the Bible is supposed to have been finalized a long time ago, this option is not available for xians. I personally havent gone to church since i was at school and then i rarely went in the end, because i saw the bible as bullshit for several reasons, because claims that god loves everyone dont add up when he sponsors genocide and only wishes to help the jews. For me if god exists and can create the universe then he can write a bible that says exactly what he wants it to say. There is no need for interpretation. I cant accept that god cant communicate effectively and needs to be corrected or translated for us by some other men. I take no offense in answering questions about this sort of thing, its just for me not very interesting.
You may wish to beleive in the trinity, thatsyour choice. However as i stated previously if you wish to accept such a beleif as being bible based then the one or two scriptures that possibly allude to this arrangement seems quite unacceptable. The bible is a large book, if God wanted us to know he is a trinity, then surely he could have made this more clear on numerous occassions rather than just John 1 etc. Again i find basing beliefs on what amounts to just a handful of words an amazing insult to any god figure. Basically trinitarians and the other side are arguing over a dozen key words, which basically means God cant write a lousy sentence but can create the complex universe. This paradox doesnt make sense, and the bible cant be written by an entity that created the universe.
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jhine
mp , If I wish to believe in the Trinity ,thats my choice , but believing this based on a few verses is unacceptable , to who ? to you , then don't believe . Why should I worry that you find it unacceptable , you seem to take a lot on yourself deciding what is unacceptable , I find it very acceptable , is your veiw more valid than mine ?
You like words used as they should be
LIE : the Concise Oxford dictionary defines lie as "an intentional false statement " now if I believe what I am saying how is that a lie according to the proper use of the word . I , in no way make INTENTIONAL false statements , I say what my beliefs are . If a doctor looks at an x ray and believes that it shows a fracture is he lying at that moment if it turns out later to not be a fracture ?
You say that you like to be exact but then you say that God only wishes to help the Jews , is not the whole purpose of Christs death to bring the possibility of salvation to the whole world ?
Please try to be more exact in your accusations .
You use the old atheist argument of genocide , have you now had chance to look at the thread about this subject , or like many atheists will you not bother because you just want to diss God and not actually find out about Him and His dealings with His creation ?
ON other threads you have put words into my posts that were not there like when you seemed to think that I had said that Christ had offspring , which I had not said . I stated that Christ was the offspring of Mary . When I questioned where your rebuttel had come from , you gave no answer , so please only attribute to me what I actually say , so that you can be accurate as you say you like to be .
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mP
Jhine
mp , If I wish to believe in the Trinity ,thats my choice , but believing this based on a few verses is unacceptable , to who ? to you , then don't believe . Why should I worry that you find it unacceptable , you seem to take a lot on yourself deciding what is unacceptable , I find it very acceptable , is your veiw more valid than mine ?
mP:
I always stated in my previous post, that i was expressing my opinions and that are you free to believe whatever you wish. I was however only using this as a medium to debate and stating what i thought was a major flaw in using the bible as the basis for such a belief, namely why god did such a poor job on stating this "fact".
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mP
JHinE:
You say that you like to be exact but then you say that God only wishes to help the Jews , is not the whole purpose of Christs death to bring the possibility of salvation to the whole world ?
MP:
Well given the OT clearly states that Jehovah is the god of the jews and that the jews are his special people, followed by Jesus own words that he only came for the jews its pretty obvious that he was only focused on that commnity. The entire exercise was isolated to that part of the world. God has no care or interest in the lands and peoples outside that boundary.
Im sorry the apostle Paul doesnt count for several reasons. Firstly he does not know Jesus in any manner. Quote a single scripture that shows he is aware of Jesus earthly ministry. The one liners about James the brother of the Lord in Gal dont really count. Its quite evident from that passage that Paul knows nothing of the other 12, the earthly minsitry, miracles, where Jesus died and so on.
TO sin by defnition means you broke some of gods laws, namely the ones Moses wrote. Moses also says the laws are only for the jews and many of the laws are only valid in Israel. Considering im not jewish nor do i live there, then i coudlnt have broken any of those laws as it has jurisdication over my life or actions. Im not the one ruling myself out , the bible is!
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mP
JHINE
LIE : the Concise Oxford dictionary defines lie as "an intentional false statement " now if I believe what I am saying how is that a lie according to the proper use of the word . I , in no way make INTENTIONAL false statements , I say what my beliefs are . If a doctor looks at an x ray and believes that it shows a fracture is he lying at that moment if it turns out later to not be a fracture ?
MP: Well when Christians say that the prophecy of being born of a virgin was predicted in Isa and that scripture doenst mention a virgin but a maiden, we have a problem. WHy say theres a prophecy about a virgin birth when there is none ?
The same goes for Micah 5:3 and the so called prophecy about being born in Bethelehm. Read the scripture there and you will see its completely out of context and is not applicable to Jesus. In Mic 5:7 or 8 it mentions the messiah will conquer the Assyrians an achievement that Jesus never completes. Early in Mic 5 it mentions Bethelem Ephraim a tribe not a place. The pretend this is about being born in Bethelehem when the words clearly dont match this is a LIE and deceitful. Given the application to Jesus is completely wrong, how is that not a lie and deceitful ? Christians are making claims that are simply not present in the text, which eeveryone can read for themselves. -
mP
JHINE
You use the old atheist argument of genocide , have you now had chance to look at the thread about this subject , or like many atheists will you not bother because you just want to diss God and not actually find out about Him and His dealings with His creation ?
mP:
I havent mentioned genocide once in this thread. I am happy to discuss this point of view but i feel you are opening too many questions which i have already replied. I hope you address them completely first.
I have always stated the reason for the genocide and gods commands for it in the OT have nothing to do with god. The reason they are there is because opportunist rulers made them up to further their ambitions. The same goes for the common theme of the laws of Moses. Its always about obedience to gods representative, the king regardless of his morals. The OT Is not a book of morals its a book about submission to some who claim authority but are frauds.
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There is no god and bible connection. Just frauds who lie and claim such things but history and their continued failures demonstrate this. God didnt write th laws of Moses. God never helped Israel thats why they invented the grand stories that they did.
Most of the extraordinary stories have been proven beyong reasonable doubt to be fairy tales. There was no Noahs ark and flood over the entire world. No great king Solomon or David, Exodus and so on. The OT is just a story of a people who are unfortunately stuck between empires and their troubles. They hope and wish to be great but they are too small and unfortunatley suffer because of that. God never helps them, this is evident by their history.
Thats the simplest answer and makes perfect sense with the archeology and historical facts.
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mP
Lastly as the topic of this thread says, Christians are lying when they say Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses for the simple reason that Moses did not mention jesus once. He never writes that there is a need for a perfect man to die for us and so on. Maybe there are other places that might mention such a thing, but there is definitely none in the writings of Moses. To claim Moses prophecised about jesus is a lie. Moses neer prophecised about anything.
Jesus is never mentioned in the OT by name or title, so nobody could have prophecised about him.
There are no scriptures about Jesus in the OT. All claims require extreme word twisting and word games. When you start doing that to back your pov you are LYING because you are misrepresenting the text.
Of course if im wrong show me a few scriptures.
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mP
JHINE
ON other threads you have put words into my posts that were not there like when you seemed to think that I had said that Christ had offspring , which I had not said . I stated that Christ was the offspring of Mary . When I questioned where your rebuttel had come from , you gave no answer , so please only attribute to me what I actually say , so that you can be accurate as you say you like to be .
mP:
Perhaps i made a mistake, i cant recall. if i did sorry, i must have been rushing and misquoted somebobbyd.