Do Animals Have Souls?

by Cold Steel 165 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    COFTY: The question of conscious existence after death is a scientific question. Supernatural claims can be tested in a controlled enviroment and proven to be false.

    I don't agree, I don't think it has anything to do with science, at least not the science as we currently understand it to be. If something existed after death, I believe it could be something that exists outside our physical world, something that cannot be understood or measured by any known scientific method known to man. It wan't that long ago that we didn't know what electricity was, or that we could split an atom, so it doesn't seem that far fetched to me that something like that could exist, but we just don't know yet how to detect it. It's not that I believe such a thing actually exists (obviously), it's that I believe it's possible that such a thing might exist.

    You don't ever read science fiction and try to imagine there might be things out there we don't know about yet?

  • cofty
    cofty

    I enjoy fiction but I know how to keep it separate from reality.

    Of course there are lots of things still to be discovered, that is what makes science so exciting. Actually we will never have time to read a fraction of the fascinating things that science already understands.

    What science doesn't know isn't an excuse to invent any old fantasy about pets living forever in an afterlife and pretend its a serious conversation.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    It is interesting how the anecdotes of real people come to the surface in these interesting discussions. I take these as evidence especially when they mount up from all different types of people.

    One of the claims I have heard is that the soul cannot continue after death because the brain contains the personality, and this starts to deteriorate often before and certainly after death. Evidence for this is things like brain damage from injury, or disease like Alzheimer’s, resulting in corresponding personality damage. This is of course extremely compelling evidence and I agree that in normal circumstances physical correspondence between brain and things associated with the `me` or soul, like memory and personality hold true. However as I said before when things become extreme glimpses of another paradigm start to show.

    One example is a phenomenon where someone near their time to die, regardless of brain degeneration, becomes lucid with full personality and memory.

    Two of my friends have told me of similar things happening to their loved ones as they lay in bed near the end. This if true is a spoke in the eye yet again, to a materialist view of the soul being the whole deal. There is no reason to think that animals would be any different to us, and if so it means there is evidence to support the idea that memories and personality are interconnected with something else and are only temporarily associated with brain function. That is until events become extreme as with death.

    Here is a link to a study called Terminal lucidity: A review and a case collection:

    http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/psychiatry/sections/cspp/dops/emily-kelly-pdfs/OTH25terminal%20lucidity-AGG.pdf

    Here is some of it here:

    “The unexpected return of mental clarity and memory shortly before death is a curious phenomenon that has so far not received much attention from psychiatrists or other physicians. We refer to such cases as “terminal lucidity.” The most remarkable cases involve patients who were mentally ill but seemed to recover shortly before death. Despite their potential to trigger the development of new forms of therapies and to contribute to an enhanced understanding of cognition and memory processing, terminal lucidity in mental disorders was largely ignored by psychiatrists and other physicians during the 20th century. In this article, we present results of a literature survey regarding terminal lucidity in mental disorders.. . .

    After the mid-19th century, academic interest in terminal lucidity decreased. Accounts of terminal lucidity were published most often by authors interested in the philosophy of mind and brain, not necessarily physicians. Because these terminal lucidity reports mirrored the cases described earlier by physicians, we assume that they generally constitute reliable case reports.

    It was not until 1975 that another detailed article on terminal lucidity was published in a medical journal, this one concerning 3 cases of chronic schizophrenia (Turetskaia and Romanenko, 1975). That article is the only publication on terminal lucidity in mental disorders we could find in medical journals during the 20th century.

    Within the last few years, interest in terminal lucidity in mental disorders has increased again, as indicated in the publication of cases by Brayne et al. (2008) and by Grosso (2004), and the brief review of terminal lucidity in mentally disorders included in Kelly et al. (2007). Most of these recent cases involved terminally ill patients who suffered from severe dementia. In one study of end-of-life experiences, 70% of caregivers in a nursing home reported that during the past 5 years, they had observed patients with dementia becoming lucid a few days before death (Brayne et al., 2008). Members of another palliative care team confirmed that such incidents happen regularly, and one interviewee also reported that her own mother had dementia and could not recognize her family until her last day (Brayne et al., 2008). Similarly, a woman aged 92 who had been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease for 9 years and did not recognize close family members, including her son, recognized them again 24 hours before she died. Moreover, she knew how old she was and where she was, which she had not known for many years (Grosso, 2004).

    Temporal Aspects of Terminal Lucidity

    As far back as the early 19th century, Burdach (1826) noted that there are 2 ways in which terminal lucidity may manifest. First, the severity of mental derangement can improve slowly in conjunction with the decline of bodily vitality. The cases of schizophrenia reported by Turetskaia and Romanenko (1975) fall into this category. Second, full mental clarity can appear quite abruptly and unexpectedly shortly before death. Many of the cases involving dementia can be filed in this second category.

    Table 2 shows the onset of terminal lucidity as described in the 49 case reports we were able to trace, separated into 4 clusters according to their timing. In 84% of the cases, terminal lucidity seems to occur within the last week before death, with 43% occurring within the last day of life.

    . . .

    From a medical perspective, terminal lucidity in patients suffering from schizophrenia and dementia is of primordial importance due to its potential to improve the mental conditions of chronic patients by a deeper understanding of the psychopathology and neuropathology involved. Yet, it is rarely if ever mentioned in scholarly books on schizophrenia or dementia and their treatment. . . .

    The same applies for patients suffering from the various forms of advanced dementia. Here, it is additionally intriguing that several forms of dementia, notably Alzheimer’s disease, are largely caused by degeneration and irreversible degradation of the cerebral cortex and the hippocampus, resulting among other symptoms in confusion, disorientation, and memory loss (Wenk, 2003). It is unclear how severely demented patients can sometimes recognize their family members and remember their lives again shortly before death, suggesting that the memories in these cases had been rendered inaccessible but not entirely deleted.

    We have limited our literature review to cases of terminal lucidity in mental illness that were not satisfactorily explained in medical terms. Most often, a medical explanation was not even attempted. However, some authors suggested that high fever prior to dying might induce terminal lucidity (Freidreich, 1839), a mechanism that was at one time used in a treatment for one specific mental illness.”

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    Oh sorry, I didn't know this was limited to scientific fact and serious discussion only. It seemed more of a light theological debate, so I gave my honest belief that if people have souls, animals could too. I mean really, if no one has a soul, what is the point of the thread? I respect your intellect Cofty, even if I don't always agree with you, but you need to lighten up, not everything has to to be so serious. Skip over my comments if they offend you so much.

  • cofty
    cofty

    So terminal lucidity is being proposed as evidence of post-death conscious existence even though consciousness cannot survive anaesthesia. Then you extrapolate without any evidence at all that animals are no different.

    All animals? Insects too? How about bacteria, or is it just cute animals?

    Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be NOT magic.

    Skip over my comments if they offend you so much. - LisaRose

    Why do you think that I am offended by your comments? What a strange thing to say.

    Its a discussion, people will voice different opinions.

    By the way it was started by a mormon who is here to recruit exiting JWs to a new cult.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    You will always have the advantage coffy because we currently live in a physical universe, and thus of course you can point to example after example of scientific explanations which explain things which were either once either unknown, or assigned to other agency, which to be fair is unfair because science is only the study of the physical universe anyway, and is limited to that. I’m not saying science is wrong I hope you notice, just that human beings and their real life experience should not be unduly ignored either. However dogmatism and certainly seem not to be limited only to JWs.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    The limitation of Science is that it only deals with what can be measured and quantified. If you can't see it, feel it, test it, it's dismissed. There is the field of theoretical physics, but that still deal with the physical world.

    What is the spiritual realm? Just another dimension perhaps, another universe? I think because of the quagmire that Organized religion has caused, people who have been burned more that others seem to hate the world spiritual. Once you have that bias, you just dismiss everything " spiritual " or unexplained.

    Cofty admits that he did not even watch the above video.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    When did I ever give anything as evidence? I believe I said there was not, nor could there there ever be proof, I said "if" and "could", any all of it it mostly tongue in cheek. I believe in science, I am actually am not sure abut God, life after death any of it. With all the millions of people in the world who will kill for their (non existent ) God, you are getting your undies in a bunch about my wishy washy belief in the possibility of God? I don't get it, but I give up, you are right, nothing exists after death, we are all just dust in the wind, end of story. I will stop posting on this thread and go hug my kitty now, I guess I have to cherish her while I can.

  • cofty
    cofty

    So Serpahim calls rejection of the supernatural "dogmatism" and likens it to JW thinking - the ultimate in ex-JW ad hominem - and DataDog sees it as being a bias or hatred brought on by exposure to "Organized religion".

    Have either of you considered it might just be that some of us are sufficiently satisfied by the wonders of reality?

    Evidence-free assertions are easy to make and even easier to dismiss.

    Cofty admits that he did not even watch the above video

    What the cheesy one about the dog and the crow? Did it contain evidence of animal life after death? If it did I will watch it now.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Coffy I think you overcomplicate things. It is just that love is very powerful and people don’t want to think that death is the end of it, as though it never existed along with the beings people loved, which is in fact what it would mean if death lasts forever when you think about forever being an infinite thing. It would mean we shouldn’t be alive even now, as infinity is all expansive without limit, its infinity. That’s not an argument to become credulous, quite the opposite in fact. The word supernatural is just another word for the metaphysical. It is not that unreasonable to think that other things could exist apart from the domain science is limited to i.e this psychical universe. After all we don’t even know why or where it began, which is ironic when you think about it, as why and where would seem to be quintessentially scientific type questions, except their answer lies outside that which can be penetrated by scientific instruments, namely the universe. This is why the word meta physical was invented, meta meaning "after", "beyond", "adjacent".

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