Can any Witness possibly anwser this question?

by jerome 132 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • apostate man
    apostate man

    Funny stuff. I don't even believe in the trinity. I hate to do this, but I had a thread on that topic, http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=23846&site=3

    Lets assume, for Alans sake, that there is a God and that the Bible is Gods word. Unlike JW's , I back up all my beliefs with scripture. I am human and can fault, God can't, he's perfect. Gods word does all the talking for me. A few scriptures to back me up.

    Deut 6:4
    Isaiah 44:6,8
    Zech 14:9
    Matthew 1:21
    Matthew 28:18
    I Timothy 3:16
    John 1:1 obviously
    John 1:3
    John 1:14
    John 17:3
    John 17:5
    II Corinth 5:19
    James 2:19
    Colossians 2:9

    Break the chains that bind you,
    unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Haven't got time to read lots of rhetoric, this weekend, as I'm REALLY busy.

    Can we condense some stuff?
    AlanF - I'd really like to hear your explanation regarding John 1:1.
    Apostateman - can you condense that thread into a statement of faith?

    Just to keep the ball rolling...
    I believe John 1:1 is saying that the Word was God and was with God.
    I also have to consider John 14:16, which tells me that the Holy Spirit was like Jesus.

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    ill wander back into this thread since alan has made it interesting. couple points:

    apostate man said to alan:

    There is ONE AND ONLY ONE according to the Bible and if you do not believe in the Bible, then what are you doing here?
    i object to this. what alan is doing, as i had been earlier in the thread, is discussing the question of what a particular person who wrote a particular passage was expressing, e.g. what did the author of john 1:1 believe the relationship to be between god and christ? aren't we equally capable of discussing that question whether or not we believe that the author of john1:1 was also inspired to write down god's thoughts? if not, then i think your whole argument is kind of meaningless, inasmuch as it is an argument that is not accessible by epistemic reason but only by faith. faith should be based on reason, not the other way around. personally it is an argument that i still enjoy delving into, despite my changed views on the bible.

    alan said:

    The earliest writings contain no trace of the trinity, and they can be read quite understandably from a non-trinitarian point of view. By the time of Paul's writings, traces of a "Jesus is theos" idea are seen
    by this sequence, i can only assume the 'earliest writings' are those in the old testament, is that right? i think i wouldve expressed this differently, ignoring the hebrew writings: first, the pauline epistles i dont think contain any traces of christs deification; neither do the synoptic gospels tho they are approaching it. john's gospel does but is fuzzy as you say, with formalization to come of course by the post-apostolic fathers.

    I wholeheartedly agree with M. James Penton's assessment: they're all pups from the same bitch.
    great quote - i dont remember hearing this one. where is it?

    mox

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    To Alan & Simon:

    The poster known as "THEWIZ" is a troll. I have his true name and credentials and location if you're interested. Just let me know how and when to forward the information.

    Thx alot!

  • Unclepenn1
    Unclepenn1

    The Deity of Christ is not something that is ambiguous in scripture. Even in the faulty NWT, it is crystal clear when comparing verses from things soley about Jehovah, to things that are said about Jesus. It is long, but just scroll through it and you will see what I mean. (borrowed from Dave Sherrill)

    This article presents some of the best scriptural evidence of Christ's Deity as it exists in the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation (NWT). Before reading this article Jehovah's Witnesses may deny that the NWT contains even a hint of Christ's Deity. They are constantly instructed by the Watchtower Society to reject believing in Christ's Godhood. When scriptural points are raised from other translations, Jehovah's Witnesses always have the excuse, "It's not translated correctly in that Bible." When the same questions are raised and answered from the NWT they can no longer avoid the answers with such ease.

    Note: verse references marked wtih a "*" indicate a clear reference to Christ's Deity in the NWT.

    WHO IS GOD?

    Jehovah
    *De 6:4 Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
    *De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah

    No Other "Gods"
    *Is 44:6-8 besides me there is no God. there is no Rock besides me.
    *Is 43:10 Before me there was no God formed.
    *Is 45:5,22 with the exception of me there is no God.
    *Is 46:8-11 no other God, nor anyone like me.

    No Other "gods"
    *De 32:39 no gods with Jehovah
    *Ex 20:2-3 must not have any other gods

    ALL OTHER GODS OR gods ARE FALSE

    Baal
    *Judges 6:31 Baal, God

    Dagon
    *Judges 16:23-24 Dagon, god

    Satan
    *2 Cor 4:4 Satan, god

    Herod
    *Acts 12:21-23 Herod, a god

    ARE THERE MANY GODS OR MANY gods?
    *Ps 96:4-5 One True God by nature
    *Gal 4:8 those who by nature are not gods.
    *1 Cor 8:4-5 One God in 8:4. 8:5 is referring to idols who by nature are not gods, as seen in Gal 4:8

    This helps us understand that being God is much more than a title or a name. It is the very nature of the being so described as God. God is God because of who he is, not because people call him God.

    WHO IS LORD?

    God
    *Ac 17:24 God, Lord of heaven and earth
    *Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
    *Ac 4:24 God... Sovereign Lord
    *Ac 17:24 God... Lord of Heaven and Earth

    Jehovah
    *De 10:17 Jehovah is Lord of lords
    *1Tim 6:15 Jehovah is Lord of lords

    Jesus
    *1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Ro 10:9 Jesus is Lord
    *Rev 17:14, 19:16 Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords.
    *Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    This verse (Lk 2:11) shows that Jesus was born Lord, not that he became Lord later.

    HOW MANY LORDS ARE THERE?

    One Lord
    *Ep 4:5-6 One Lord... one God and Father
    *1 Co 8:6 one Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ

    WHO IS SAVIOR?

    God
    *Titus 1:3 Our Savior, God
    *Titus 3:4 Our Savior, God
    * 1 Tim 1:1 God, our Savior
    *2 Sam 22:3 God my Savior
    *Ps 7:10 God, a Savior
    *Ps 17:7 God, o Savior
    *Ps 106:21 God their Savior
    *Is 43:3 God your Savior
    *Is 45:15 God of Israel, a Savior
    *Lu 1:47 God my Savior
    *1 Tim 2:3 our Savior, God
    *1 Tim 4:10 God, who is a Savior
    *Titus 2:10 our Savior, God
    *Jude 25 the only God our Savior

    Jehovah Alone
    *Is 43:11 I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior
    *Is 45:21 Jehovah alone is Savior
    *Hos 13:4 No savior but Jehovah
    *Is 49:26 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser
    *Is 60:16 I, Jehovah, am your Savior and Repurchaser

    Jesus
    *Php 3:20 we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
    Titus 2:13 we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Jesus Christ.
    NWT introduces [the] into the previous verse to obscure that Jesus is called God there.
    *Titus 1:4 God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior
    *Titus 3:6 Jesus Christ our Savior
    2 Pet 1:1 our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ.
    NWT adds [the] to the previous verse to obscure the fact that Jesus is called God there.
    *John 4:42 the savior of the world
    *Ac 5:31 Chief Agent and Savior
    *Ac 13:23 a savior, Jesus
    *Ep 5:23 a savior of [this] body
    *2 Tim 1:10 our Savior, Christ
    *2 Pet 1:11 the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    *2 Pet 2:20 the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    *2 Pet 3:2 Who is being spoken of here? Jehovah or Jesus?
    *2 Pet 3:18 our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    *1 John 4:14 the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world

    WHO IS OWNER AND LORD?

    Jesus
    *Jude 4 our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ
    *Ep 4:5-6 one Lord, one faith. Who is the one Lord? Jehovah or Jesus?

    WHO FORGIVES SINS?

    God
    *Mk 2:7 God alone can forgive sin
    *Lk 5:21 God alone can forgive sin

    Jesus
    *Mk 2:5-7,10 Jesus forgives sin
    *Lk 5:24 Jesus forgives sin

    WHO PURCHASED CHURCH WITH HIS OWN BLOOD?

    God
    Ac 20:28 Why is [Son] in brackets? How can this be "understood" without being in the Greek text explicitly?

    SAVED BY FAITH IN WHO?

    Jesus
    *Ac 4:12 There is not another name under heaven by which we must be saved. Whose name is this?
    *Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name. Who is "him?"
    *John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
    *John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
    *1 John 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
    *1 John 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
    *Ro 3:19-26,28 man is declared righteous by faith in Jesus
    *Ro 10:9 declare that Jesus is Lord and exercise faith... for salvation

    WHO CREATED ALL THINGS?

    God
    *Ep 3:9 God, who created all things

    Jehovah alone
    *Is 44:24 I, Jehovah..., stretching out the heavens by myself. This does not allow for a "junior partner" in creation. Jehovah clearly states that He Himself created the heavens without the aid of anyone else.
    *Is 48:13 My own hand laid the foundation of the earth and my own right hand extended out the heavens. This does not allow a "junior partner" in creation. See also Heb 3:1-4

    Jesus
    *Jo 1:1-3 all things came into existence through him. If Jesus is a created being then he is a "thing". But this verse says all "things" came into existence through Jesus. This excludes Jesus from the realm of "things" and puts him in the class of being uncreated, eternal, not part of the created world.
    Col 1:16 by him all [other] things were created. What is [other]? How can that be "understood" if it isn't present in the original language?
    Rev 3:14 arkhe = beginning Note: same arkhe applied to Jehovah in Rev 21:5-7. How is Jehovah the "beginning" as the WT demands that arkhe must be translated? [Should You Believe In The Trinity? p.14]
    *Ps 102:24-27 Who? Jehovah?
    *Heb 1:10-12 This is a direct quote of Ps 102:24-27 and is applied to Jesus. See also Is 44:24

    Is Jesus a "master worker" with Jehovah in creation?
    WT says yes from Prov 8:3. Prov 8 is a personification of Wisdom speaking in a feminine voice (which NWT does not accurately reflect even though WT has confessed of the speaker's feminine gender in Prov 8.) See Prov 7:4 and 9:4 for the gender of "wisdom" in Proverbs. Why did the NWT translate wisdom in chapter 8 as "it" instead of "she" as the original language indicates?

    WHO IS FIRST AND LAST?

    Jehovah
    *Is 44:6,8 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last
    *Is 48:12 Jehovah says I am the first and I am the last

    Jesus
    *Rev 1:17-18 I am the First and I am the Last, and the living one; and I became dead...
    *Rev 2:8 the First and the Last, who became dead and came to life again
    *Rev 22:12-13, 20 Look! I am coming quickly, ... I am the first and the last
    *Rev 22:16,20 I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you... Yes; I am coming quickly.
    *Rev 4:8 Holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming.

    WHO IS ALPHA AND OMEGA?

    Jehovah
    *Rev 1:8 Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty

    Jesus
    *Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega = first and last. Who is this?
    *Rev 22:16 Shows Jesus as speaking in vs 12-13
    *Rev 1:12-18 Who is the Son of man? Jesus. What does he call himself? First and Last. First and Last = Alpha and Omega = the Almighty. Jesus is Almighty God.
    *Rev 22:12-13 Alpha and Omega is "coming." Is Jehovah "coming?"

    SHOULD WE BOW BEFORE ANOTHER GOD OR god?

    No
    *Ex 34:14 Don't prostrate before another god.

    Jesus
    *Php 2:9-11 Knees bend at the name of Jesus

    Father
    *Ep 3:14 Knees bend before the Father

    WHO RECEIVES WORSHIP?

    God
    Matt 4:10 Worship the Lord God only

    Jesus
    In all of these verses the NWT has replaced the word "worship" with "obeisance."
    Matt 2:2,11 Magi worship Christ
    Matt 14:33 Disciples worship Jesus
    Matt 28:9 the Marys worship Jesus
    Matt 28:16-17 The eleven worship Jesus
    John 9:38 The healed blind man worshipped Jesus
    Heb 1:6 All angels worship Jesus
    Rev 5:11-14 Millions of angels worship Jesus

    People worshipped other people or angels and were rebuked for it. See Rev 19:10; 22:8-9; Ac 10:25

    What is obeisance?
    Watchtower defines it as follows, "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person..." (Reasoning, p.215) Applying the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance to the verses describing people giving obeisance to Jesus, we could say that they "prostrated themselves before a god" since Jesus is "a god" in Watchtower theology. This is a clear and logical conclusion to reach by following the Watchtower's own definition of obeisance and who they believe Jesus is. Upon reaching this conclusion we need to go immediately to the following verse.
    *Ex 34:14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.

    While the Watchtower attempts to draw the unwarranted conclusion that "obeisance" to Jesus is somehow different than worship, their own definition of obeisance leads them into clear and direct conflict with Ex 34:14. Either Jesus is God or those rendering obeisance to him are guilty of "prostrating themselves before another god."

    This refutes the Watchtower's claim that "obeisance" to Jesus is ok because it is not worship. The Watchtower has inadvertently admitted that worship is given to Jesus in the Reasoning book p. 214. The question is stated as follows, "Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?"

    JESUS NAME IS EXALTED IN NEW TESTAMENT
    *Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
    *Lk 10:17 demons are made subject to us by use of your name
    *Ac 16:18 I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her
    *Lk 24:47 on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached
    *John 1:12 to them he gave authority to become God's children, because they were exercising faith in his name
    *John 3:16 everyone exercising faith in him
    *Ac 10:43 everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name
    *1 Jo 3:23 this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ
    *1 Jo 5:13 you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God
    *Ac 4:12 there is not another name under heaven... by which we must be saved
    *Jo 14:13-14, 26 whatever you ask in my name, I will do it
    *Ac 3:16 our faith in his name has made this man strong
    *Ac 4:7-10,30 healing and signs come in the name of Jesus
    *1 Co 1:2 with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
    *Ep 1:21 far above every name named
    *Php 2:9-11 the name that is above every other name
    *Ac 1:8 you will be witnesses of me

    WHO KNOWS MEN'S HEARTS?

    Jehovah alone
    *1 Ki 8:39 Jehovah alone knows all men's hearts

    Jesus
    *Rev 2:23 Jesus searches the hearts of all men
    *Mat 9:4 Jesus knew their thoughts
    *Mat 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts
    *Lk 6:8 Jesus knew their reasoning
    *Lk 9:47 Jesus knew the reasoning of their hearts

    FULLNESS OF DEITY

    Jesus
    Col 2:8-9 What does KIT say? Divine quality or Deity? What does "all" mean? What does "fullness" mean? Theotes vs. Theiotes or Essence vs. Quality. Theotes is "fullness" used here to describe Jesus, showing that the "essence of God dwells in him bodily." It isn't a question of him having divine qualities. Instead it shows that he is God in the flesh.

    WHO IS THE SHEPHERD?

    Jehovah
    *Ps 23:1 Jehovah is my Shepherd
    *Is 40:10-11 Jehovah is like a shepherd

    Jesus
    *Jo 10:11 Jesus is the fine shepherd

    WHO IS MIGHTY GOD?

    Jehovah
    *Is 10:20-21 the Mighty God, Jehovah
    *Jer 32:18 the mighty one, Jehovah

    Jesus
    *Is 9:6 Jesus is Mighty God

    IS JESUS GOD?
    In all but the last verse of the following references the NWT mistranslates each one.
    Titus 2:13
    Heb 1:8
    Ps 45:6
    2 Pe 1:1
    1 Jo 5:20
    *Is 9:6 Mighty God

    IS JESUS JEHOVAH?
    *Ro 10:9-13 Publicly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that he was raised from the dead and you will be saved.
    *Ro 10:9 (Whose name are you calling on for salvation?)
    *Ro 10:10 With the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. (What public declaration? That Jesus is Lord.)
    *Ro 10:11 None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed. (Who is "him?" He is the subject of verses 9 and 10, Jesus.)
    *Ro 10:12 One Lord, rich to those calling on him. (On who? Vs 9 identifies that we are to call on Jesus by name.)
    *Ro 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Return to vs. 9 to see whose name must be called on to be saved. It is Jesus. What Paul was doing in vs 9-13 was clearly explaining that Jesus is God based on OT verses about God (Joel 2:32) applied directly to Jesus. Verse 9 and verse 13 are references to the same profession that saves, precisely that Jesus is Lord. Verse 13 is identifying the same one to call on for salvation that is named in verse 9.)
    *Ep 1:21 Jesus' name above every name in this system and the system to come
    *Ac 4:12 Salvation in Jesus' name alone
    *Php 2:9 Jesus' name above every other name
    *Ex 34:12-15 Jehovah's command not to prostrate before other gods. Note that Jehovah condemns little "g" gods here. If JWs were to bow before Jesus then according to their theology they would be bowing before a little "g" god. This would violate Jehovah's command. But Jehovah has said that at the name of Jesus every knee will bend. (Php 2:9-11) Would Jehovah command that people bend their knees to Jesus when he has expressly forbidden bowing before other gods?
    *Ep 3:14 compare with Php 2:9
    *Is 45:22-24 for OT parallel of bowing to the Father that Paul was quoting in Php 2:9 and applying to Jesus in saying that "every knee will bend down and every tongue will swear". It is a direct quote from the OT referring to Jehovah and is applied clearly and directly to Jesus. Paul definitely believed that Jesus is Jehovah.
    Zech 14:3-5 with Mat 25:31 and Ac 1:11-12 Who is returning with the holy ones? Jesus or Jehovah?
    Zech 14:5 with 1 Thess 3:13

    IS JESUS ALMIGHTY?
    *Heb 1:3 He sustains all things by the word of his power. Is this mighty or almighty? Could anything less than "all might" sustain "all things?"
    *Rev 4:8 Jehovah God, who was and is and is to come, the Almighty. Who is coming? Jehovah or Jesus?
    *Rev 22:20 Jesus is coming as identified in Rev 4:8. Jesus is Almighty God.

    IS JESUS OMNIPRESENT?
    *Mat 18:20 Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name
    *Mat 28:20 I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things

    DOES JESUS HAVE ALL AUTHORITY?
    *Ma 28:18 all means all

    WHAT IS HEADSHIP?
    *1 Co 11:3 Headship, not quality of being. Is man a superior human in quality compared to woman? No. Therefore this verse cannot be teaching that Christ is inferior to the Father if it is not teaching that women are inferior to men. If it is teaching that Christ is inferior in quality to the Father, then language demands that the same inferiority of quality be applied to women, and we know that it cannot be.

    WHAT DOES FIRSTBORN MEAN?
    *Co 1:15 Jesus is firstborn of all creation. Does this refer to order of creation or to the headship of Christ? The Greek word used is proto-tokos. There is a different Greek word that specifically means 'first created', proto-tiktos.
    *Ps 89:20-27 David was not born first.
    Also, who was Joseph's firstborn? See Ge 41:50-52, Ge 48:1-20, Ps 89:27, and Jer 31:7-9

    IS JESUS EQUAL TO JEHOVAH?
    *1 Cor 15:28 This verse identifies a change in the Son's position relative to the Father. What is the Son's position before subjecting himself to the Father? Equal to! This verse describes a change in position. The Son "becomes subject" to the Father. This means that at some point he is not subject and he changes position to "become subject." Note the presence of "when" and "then" in the verse.

    DOES JESUS SHARE JEHOVAH'S GLORY?
    *Is 6:1-5 with John 12:37-41 Isaiah's vision of Jehovah's glory is applied by John to Jesus in verse 41. He says Isaiah saw his glory. Who did John mean by [his] and who did Isaiah see?
    *Is 42:8 with John 17:5. Jehovah will not share his glory yet Jesus has glory alongside Jehovah
    *John 12:45 Can any creature claim this? No. Jesus is not like any created being.
    *Is 48:11 Jehovah will not give his glory to anyone else.

    IS JESUS THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER?
    *John 12:45 He that beholds me beholds him that sent me
    *2 Co 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God
    *He 1:3 the exact representation of his very being
    *John 8:19 if you knew me, you would know my Father also
    *John 12:44 he who puts faith in me
    *John 14:7-9 know me, know my Father also
    Col 2:9 Theotes vs. Theiotes or (Essence vs. Quality)

    IS JESUS MASTER?
    *Col 3:24 Slave for the Master, Christ

    WHO IS THE STUMBLING STONE?

    Jehovah
    *Is 8:13-14 Who? Jehovah.

    Jesus
    *1 Pe 2:6-8 Who? Jesus.

    HOLY SPIRIT SENT IN WHOSE NAME?

    Father
    *Lk 10:17 Father's name.

    Jesus
    *John 14:26 Jesus' name

    WHO DO WE SERVE?

    Jehovah alone
    *Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"

    God and Jesus
    *Jam 1:1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ

    Jesus
    *Ro 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus
    *2 Co 5:15 Live for him who died for us
    *Ga 1:10 Christ's slave
    *Phil 1:1 Paul and Timothy, slaves of Jesus
    *Co 3:24 slave for the Master, Christ
    *Co 4:12 Epaphras, a slave of Jesus Christ
    *Jude 1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ

    CHRIST'S HUMILIATION OR EMPTYING OF HIMSELF TO BECOME A MAN
    *Php 2:7 he emptied himself
    *John 14:28 The Father is greater than I am
    *John 20:17 I am ascending to my God and your God
    *Ac 17:30-31 he purposes to judge by a man he has appointed
    *1 Co 11:3 Is this quality of being? Is man by nature superior to woman? Or is this headship which does not imply any innate superior quality of the one holding the headship? Yes. See 1 Co 15:28.

    WHO HAS WITNESSES?

    Jehovah
    *Is 43:10 "You are my witnesses" says Jehovah
    *Is 44:6-8 you are my witnesses

    Jesus
    *Ac 1:8 You will be witnesses of me
    *Ac 13:31 who are now his witnesses
    Ac 8:35 Philip witnessed about Jesus

    IS JESUS MICHAEL?
    *Dan 10:13,21 Michael, one of the foremost princes
    *Dan 12:1 Michael will stand up
    *Jude 9 when Michael had a difference with the Devil he did not dare to bring a judgment against him
    *Lk 4:8 Jesus rebukes satan
    *Heb 1:6 Let all God's angels worship him
    *Php 2:9 the name that is above every other name
    *Heb 1:6 Jesus is above all angels. The text does not say "all other angels." It says all angels and shows that Jesus is not included in that group. Thus he cannot be Michael the Archangel.

    COME TOGETHER IN JESUS' NAME
    *Ma 18:20 where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name

    HEALING COMES IN JESUS' NAME
    *Ac 4:7-10 Healed a lame man by faith in the name of Jesus
    *Ac 3:16 his name, by [our] faith in his name, has made this man strong

    SIGNS COME IN JESUS' NAME
    *Ac 4:30 signs and portents occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus

    DEMONS ARE SUBJECT TO JESUS' NAME
    *Lk 10:17 the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name

    WHO ANSWERS PRAYER?

    Father
    *Jo 15:16 Father's name

    Jesus
    *John 14:13-14 Jesus answers
    *Lk 10:17 Jesus' name
    *Ac 7:59-60 Stephen prayed to Jesus

    IS CHRIST IN US?
    John 15:4-5 NWT says 'in union with us'. This is especially inconsistent seeing that similar Greek construction 'in the vine' doesn't have 'union with' inserted into it.
    John 17:23,26 Why 'union with' added to verse 23? In vs 26 same phrase of love 'in them' doesn't say 'in union with'.
    Ro 8:9-10 God's spirit in you... Christ in union with you. Vs. 9 shows the Spirit "in you." Vs. 10 says Christ is "in union with you." This obscures our deep personal relationship with Christ, with him living "in us." In vs. 9 "in you" comes from Greek [en humin]. Vs.10 also says [en humin] but the NWT chooses to obscure the issue by translating it as "in union with." Why the inconsistency?
    2 Cor 13:5 Jesus in us is the test of the faith. Once again NWT has added 'union with.' More examples of addition of 'union with': Ga 1:15-16, Ga 2:20

    IS CHRIST'S SPIRIT EQUAL TO GOD'S SPIRIT
    *Ro 8:9 True Christians have God's spirit and Christ's spirit dwelling in them.

    WHO RAISED JESUS?

    God
    *1 Thess 1:9-10 Whom he [God] raised up from the dead
    *Ac 2:24 God raised Jesus from the dead.

    Jesus
    *Jo 2:19,21 I will raise it up

    WHO IS THE JUDGE OF MAN?

    Jesus
    *Jo 5:22-23 Jesus
    *2 Cor 5:10 Jesus

    WHO IS LORD OF THE SABBATH?

    Jesus
    *Ma 12:8 Jesus

    JESUS' CLAIMS ABOUT HIMSELF
    *Jo 5:18 The Jews understood Jesus made himself equal with God.
    *Jo 10:28-33 The Jews said "You make yourself God."
    *Jo 10:36 "I am God's Son" is a claim to a unique relationship with God. Jews considered it blasphemy because Jesus was claiming to be God by saying this. They wanted to stone him. There are five reasons for stoning:

    Spiritism Lev 20:27 Blasphemy Lev 24:10-23 False Prophecy Deut 13:5-10 Stubborn son Deut 21:18-21 Adultery or rape Deut 22:21-24 Lev 20:10

    JESUS AT BIRTH

    Lord
    *Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become Lord later or was he Lord from birth?

    Christ
    *Lk 2:11 there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Did Jesus become the Christ at his baptism by John? T

  • 4christ
    4christ

    UnclePenn: i am with you completely. Scripture is very clear about the Diety of Christ, from Genesis to Revelation, the bible proclaims Him, even the NWT. I have not seen a single bible verse that contradicts it.

    I don't know why anyone has to start insulting people just because they don't agree. I would not start calling someone stupid because they don't believe in God or the Bible. Of course looking back to my own athiest/agnostic days, I did used to make fun of believers. So go ahead and make fun of me and say i am stupid if you must, i probably deserve it. I make no pretense to being some scholar. I am a simple high school educated housewife. But, I know what I believe and why.

    Peace to all-Lauren

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    UnclePenn:
    That is SUCH a long post, dude.
    Have you started competing with AGuest for number of lines per post?
    (Sorry Shel, just kidding).
    I've cut and pasted it, for later perusal, but there's no way I would read that online.

    (((OVERLOAD)))

  • apostate man
    apostate man

    Hey UnclePenn, Thank you for your reply. That is the list I was wanting to come up with, but time is a factor and I only posted a handful.

    Yes, even the NWT says that Jesus and God are one.

    What ever happened to YK? He give up?

    Break the chains that bind you,
    unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing.
  • apostate man
    apostate man

    Just want to add, that when I think of "G"od, I think of a supreme being, or a deity. When I think of a "g"od, I think of Idols, false gods or someone proclaiming to be a god.

    The bible does make mention of other "g"ods, but these are mentioned in a different context than "G"od. None of these gods are given the authority and power that the ONE true GOD has.

  • Unclepenn1
    Unclepenn1

    Sorry for the ultra long post. I thought about providing a link, but if most are link me, it would just get passed over.

    Penn

    P.S. Yes, I get 12 cents per line, in case you were wondering LT :)

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