UnclePenn:
12c / line.
Darn - I'm in the wrong job!!!
Good info, though.
Can any Witness possibly anwser this question?
by jerome 132 Replies latest watchtower bible
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LittleToe
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apostate man
Topic: Can any Witness possibly anwser this question? Nope. Uncle Penn puts in a good reply and they all clam up. HOW CONVENIENT.
Break the chains that bind you,
unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing. -
Sirona
Ok I was wrong. Yahweh is not feminine. I was thinking of Elohim and the name for the Holy Spirit, which are both feminine.
Sorry for the misinformation. I still think that God didn't necessarily have to be speaking to anyone when he said "let us make man in our image".
Sirona
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alazenby
As to the multiplication of 1 x 1 x 1, intead of adding 1 plus one plus one, that is the example one would use for "in him all the FULLNESS of God dwelleth in bodily form," and in him you are made complete. To get fullness, something is multiplied, as God multiples himself. They only seem to want to add one plus one plus one, never knowing the other principles of math or logic. Also, as to feminine YHWH, I have had Witnesses tell me that Jesus was the Wisdom of God, according to the Psalm, but if you read further in the same Psalm, it says wisdom is "SHE" -- so Jesus is not just the wisdom of God. Also, one is told by Jesus himself to Thomas, "HE who has SEEN ME has SEEN THE FATHER. Why ask you show me the father." He repeats this a few lines further down in John, He who has seen ME has seen the Father and now you have seen him, et cetera, and KNOW him... That is why Christ is the image (the visible stamp in flesh) of the invisible God. Why won't someone just allow Jesus to come in and teach them all things by his Spirit of Truth -- He who is IN HIM has LIFE and this is LIFE ETERNAL. Until I did that, I could not even understand God's word, and I was in a Methodist church for 42 years until I heard the gospel preached, that I am a sinner and in need of a savior, instead of my good works and going to church, and when I realized I was going to go anywhere but heaven, I repented and admitted to God I need the blood of Jesus, for without it there is no REMISSION of sin, and God cannot dwell where sin is, and he came in and immediately I saw the truth, that Jesus now came into my heart and leaves the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, look that up -- THE SPIRIT OF GOD, SPIRIT OF CHRIST, AND THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH. Who is that one spirit?
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AlanF
alazenby said:
: As to the multiplication of 1 x 1 x 1, intead of adding 1 plus one plus one, that is the example one would use for "in him all the FULLNESS of God dwelleth in bodily form," and in him you are made complete. To get fullness, something is multiplied, as God multiples himself.
But normal multiplication is only another form of addition. You're confusing a strange metaphorical use of the word with its normal mathematical definition. But even in normal metaphorical use, the word still retains its normal definition. When we say that "God multiplies his blessings" on someone, we really mean that he adds blessing after blessing after blessing. So "to get fullness", one is actually adding, not multiplying.
That the normal notion of multiplying is just repeated addition is easy to see. Try multiplying 3 x 5. What does that mean? It means that you take 3 groups of 5 objects and then add them all up. You can equally well take 5 groups of 3 objects and do the same thing. That's why normal multiplication is simply a form of addition. It's just a multiplication of objects by numbers. That's why you can rightly say that 3 times a group of 5 people gives you 15 people, and that 3 times 1 god gives you 3 gods.
Of course, in mathematics there are many other forms of multiplication, but because they are not generally straightforward counting as is simple multiplication of numbers of objects by numbers, you have to carefully specify just what you mean by "multiplication". In other words, instead of multiplying objects by numbers with obvious results, you're multiplying objects by objects, with results that are sensible only when the precise operations are specified.
For example, in math there are objects called "complex numbers". These are of the form a+bi where "i" is defined as "the square root of minus one", such that i x i = -1, by definition, and a and b are real numbers. Then we can easily define the operation of addition: the sum of two complex numbers (a+bi) + (c+di) = (a+b) + (c+d)i . We can also define the operation of multiplication so that it's consistent with addition: (a+bi) x (c+di) = (ac - bd) + (ad + bc)i . Without these definitions that make some sort of sense both mathematically and physically, we have gobble-de-gook.
In math and physics we have quantities called "vectors" which, somewhat like complex numbers, are actually a pair of quantities. A vector has both a magnitude and a direction in space. You can think of a vector as a sort of arrow of a given length and a given direction in 3-dimensional space. We define the addition of vectors geometrically this way: take the tail of the 2nd vector and place it on the head of the first; draw an arrow from the tail of the 1st to the head of the 2nd; the resulting arrow is defined as the sum of the first two vectors. Mathematicians and physicists have found it useful to define two operations called "vector multiplication": the scalar product and the vector product. The scalar product results in a number whose magnitude is defined as the product of the magnitudes of the two vectors times the cosine of the angle between them. The vector product results in another vector and is defined as a vector whose magnitude is the product of the magnitudes of the two vectors times the sine of the angle between them, and whose direction is defined by the so-called right-hand rule: place the tails of the vectors together, rotate the head of the 1st vector into the head of the 2nd; the direction is perpendicular to the plane of rotation and positive in the direction that a right-handed screw would move if rotated the same way.
From these examples it should be clear why the concept of multiplying numbers is easy, why the idea of multiplying complex numbers is harder and needs to be defined in order to make sense, and why there can be more than one definition of "multiplication" of certain kinds of objects, and that each needs to be specified carefully in order to make sense.
Clearly, the concept of "multiplying Gods" must equally be carefully specified in order to make sense. That is why I asked for a clear definition of what trinitarians mean when they use the illustration of 1X1X1=1 to illustrate the Trinity.
But I know perfectly well that, because the concept is nonsensical, a careful definition cannot be given. The proof is that no one has done it. Certain posters have skirted around the problem, but none have tackled it head on. Again, perfectly normal behavior for JW-like people who cannot prove their beliefs logically, but who want to give an appearance of knowing what they're talking about.
: They only seem to want to add one plus one plus one, never knowing the other principles of math or logic.
Actually a lot of them do know something about other principles of math and logic. They know that there is no logic whatsoever in the concept of "multiplying Gods".
Of course, you have a good opportunity to set the record straight here, but I don't think you can do it. To do it, just as I have done briefly with vector multiplication, you would have to carefully define what it means to multiply one God by another, and then to multiply the product by yet another God.
AlanF
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apostate man
Alan, you can write your own math book if you want, but the result is the same.
Multiply yourself X yourself, and you come up with what? 1
Now call yourself Alan, Mr. A, Mr. F, Brain, whatever you want, multiply all those together, and you till get 1.
Break the chains that bind you,
unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing. -
AlanF
Apostate Man, you can write your own religious book if you want, but the result is the same.
Multiply yourself X yourself, and you come up with what? 0
Now call yourself AM, Mr. AM, Mr. A, NoBrain, whatever you want, multiply all those together, and you till get 0.
You're a particularly fine illustration of what much devotion to Fundamentalism will do to a man -- it produces the equivalent of a frontal lobotomy. The sad thing is that it's voluntary, and voluntarily reversible.
Let's try again, 0-Brain: What does it mean to multiply a person by a person?
This is not asking, "What does it mean to multiply a person by a number?" That's already been covered and the answer is easy.
AlanF
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apostate man
Alright, YOU pushed me, I will now stoop to your level and your high display of ignorance and give my reply.
You seem to be under the impression that you are above anyones opinion and automatically assume that you are correct about everything.
Truth is, your probably some geeky kid, or an older geek thinking about kids, sitting behind the screen with nothing better to do in your pathetic life other to try and pick on people who you think are are inferior to you. You don't want to reason or accept the possibility of another explanation of something to be correct, other than your own. You think your so high and mighty when in fact your monitor is hiding a real twit behind it, hiding from the real world where you would get your face busted for saying some of the things you have said. Only a TRUE moron has to resort to such things that you have resorted to in your posts. You neither impress me or convince me about the things you say, other than the fact that you are a complete idiot. Oh,wait, you've already called me that first, now didn't you? Is that the only way you can get your opinions across? HUH? DUDE?
Yeah, thats what I thought, PRICK. And I don't give a SHIT if Simon deletes my account for this reply or not. I have a life, unlike you. I don't need to come here to learn that the TRUTH is nothing but a CULT. I already knew that.
I was doing nothing in this thread other than state my opinion, you are the low life that had to start playing kids games. PATHETIC LOSER.
Break the chains that bind you,
unless, of course, you're into that sort of thing. -
thewiz
So ALanF-uck can insult me in other threads, but when I do the same back to him, he doesn't like it.
He started with the childlike behavior, name-calling and insults. I'm just responding in-kind. It's not in my usual way to insult, but when someone does it to me, I do it right back.
apostate man - I'm sure we differ about many things, but I'm in agreement with you about AlanF-uck. It must be tough for him to be the smartest living human being on the face of the planet.
Utopian Reformist -this person proves my point, which I have said all along about these boreds. If you're not liked, threats are used and steps are taken to out a person. A person who doesn't fit into the "favored" group is assailed much in the same way an apostate is from the WTB&TS. Except you guys do it on such minor points as spelling.
Thanks for proving my point. This place in many many instances is no better than the people you condemn. It's no wonder many people here are afraid to speak up. It's not a place for freedom. It's a place where you have to watch out what you say. I think many people here conform, much as they do in the WTB&TS, so they don't stand out like a sore thumb.
Who do you think you are ALANF-uck? You start with the name calling and then you put a spin on it like it was me that started with the child like behavior?
Thanks for proving my point. You're no better than the people you condemn.
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AlanF
You Fundies keep proving my point with every post: you're pups from the same bitch as JWs. Didn't you learn anything about clear thinking from your JW experience? Obviously not.
As for you, WhizBrain, you're beyond help. So stupid and hypocritical it's beyond sad.
AlanF