by wizzstick 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The get out / explanation is that the correct terminology is "potential members of the great crowd", or "great crowd of other sheep". What is seems you're looking for is when 'other sheep' started to be gathered. I remember talks on the nomenclature of "great crowd" and "other sheep".
Of course, most other Christian religions teach that when Jesus was talking about the little flock and other sheep he was talking about Jews and gentiles.
This highlights another issue that the GB prefers to ignore, because it (once again) exposes a giant gaping hole in their theology.
JW theology states that the "great crowd" was first identified in 1935. Members of that "great crowd" were in attendance at the convention where this "new light" was dispensed.
Yet 1935 ws nearly 80 years ago. Almost certainly, no one over the age of 15 or so at that time is alive now. And how many of those are there? Maybe a dozen or so left?
Thus, those thousands who stood up and identified themselves as of the "great crowd"...weren't of the "great crowd" after all.
Virtually all have died before the GT has broken out, and thus not part of the GC, since by Biblical definition, the "great crowd comes out of the tribulation", i.e., survives Armageddon.
Even more embarrassing - it highlights another embarrassing loophole.
Since virtually everyone who was never a JW gets a resurrection, per JW theology, what's the point in being a JW now?
Non-JW dies before Armageddon, gets a resurrection into paradise.
JW dies before Armageddon, gets a resurrection into paradise.
So why go thru 80 or 90 years of JW-style drudgery and tedium? What do you gain?
So the Great Crowd class were identified in 1935, but does the WT suggest when it's members first appeared on earth? All first century christians were of the annointed (I think that's right), so when do they think the first of the great crowd rolled up?
The Great Crowd survive (i.e. Come out of) the Great Tribulation. Therefore to even be a prospective member of the Great Crowd a JW has to live to see the Great Tribulation, for the simple reason that a person has zero prospect of surviving an event they will never live to see.
Both the answer to your question above as well as a real doctrinal nightmare currently facing the JW's should be apparent from this.
Given the fact that a 25 year old in 1935 would be 103 today, it is very probable that few if any of those who stood up at the convention and were recognized as the Great Multitude are left.
So why go thru 80 or 90 years of JW-style drudgery and tedium? What do you gain?
Yep
The idea of "Other Sheep" living during the time of the end who are not members of the "Great Crowd" creates a salvationless class of Christians who simply live their lives, grow old and then die just like everyone else.
I'd argue that the idea violates Christian theology at its core.
What is seems you're looking for is when 'other sheep' started to be gathered
So just to clarify, in WT theory at Pentecost 33CE when the spirit was poured out, all there were of the annointed. And over time, as they preached to the gentiles and Jews some newbies would have become annointed and some of the other sheep and not annointed.
But I'm sure I read somewhere in a WT that basically the first century christians were thought to be of the annointed. 5,000 were added at Pentecost and another 4,000 soon after according to the Bible. So that's over 5% of the annointed right there. According to the footnote in the WT Online library on Acts 21:20 after the words 'thousands' it says “myriads; tens of thousands.”
I'm looking into how many christians died in the first few centuries, and just now found this quote on JW Facts from the WT:
"Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.518
Which is very helpful (gawd bless JW Facts).
Now that's a vast number. So at least some of the annointed would have died in that time, so if the annonited had existed since 33CE and if the memorial figures were right in the 1930s....
Nah. Doesn't stack up does it?
Oh well, that's a bit more of my faith crumbling right there.
So just to clarify, in WT theory at Pentecost 33CE when the spirit was poured out, all there were of the annointed. And over time, as they preached to the gentiles and Jews some newbies would have become annointed and some of the other sheep and not annointed.
In JW theology, there was only one hope from Pentecost clear up until the supposed proximity of the end made the identification of the Great Crowd possible.
"For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)
It is not possible for "Other Sheep" to exist as a class apart from the "Great Crowd" in the Christian era. (Again in JW theology) John only saw two groups, not three.
Jesus made it very simple.
It's a simple message.
It's about a persons qualities.
You can clearly see when you are experienced with dealing with people in this world, there are some who are bad 'uns, most who are good 'uns.
Job wasn't a hebrew was he ?
it's not about, race, religion etc, it's about human qualities.
I never understood the last rites, now I do, people's conscience gets to them when they now they are heading out, facing death.
Before they meet their maker, they get worried.
Brilliant TD! That's the quote I needed:
"For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)
Has the WT ever rescinded that view?
If not then surely their 144,000 idea doesn't stack up given the number of Christians who died in the first three centuries alone?
JW theology states that the "great crowd" was first identified in 1935. Members of that "great crowd" were in attendance at the convention where this "new light" was dispensed.
Yet 1935 ws nearly 80 years ago. Almost certainly, no one over the age of 15 or so at that time is alive now. And how many of those are there? Maybe a dozen or so left?
Maybe we'll have "overlapping" great crowd new light soon.
Rub a Dub
Has the WT ever rescinded that view?
No they haven't. How can they? The JW salvific model is drawn from Revelation 7. There's only two groups, not three.
If not then surely their 144,000 idea doesn't stack up given the number of Christians who died in the first three centuries alone?
Well JW's invoke the concept of "True" Christians and hold that there were very, very few of them from about the end of the 1st century on.
