green bird, right, but:
the great crowd is still waiting to get the BREAD and the wine, according to wt, they dont, should not. and
that is FISHY. it is
The the few depriving, deceiving the many.
When did people of the Great Crowd start to appear?
by wizzstick 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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*lost*
Bread and wine, symbolic meaning.
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AnnOMaly
prologos, I don't disagree with you about all Christians being the 'Israel of God.' I do question your distinction between two groups where one (the 144k) is granted immortality and the other isn't. Isn't that practically the same distinction as the WTS's?
wizzstick,
I missed your comments before.
Concerning:
An earthly class did appear before then but they weren't identified with the 'great crowd' which was, back in the Russellite era, another spirit-begotten, heavenly class
Was that known as the Jonadab class?
Yes, the earthly class were the 'Jonadabs.' Then in 1935, the heaven-bound 'great crowd' suddenly became part of the earth-bound 'Jonadab class.'
In 2007, the WT was forced to do away with 1935 when the last 3 Governing Body members (who were born before 1935) passed away. The current Governing Body has no members who were born before 1935. But when they erased 1935, they never provided a NEW start date for the Great Crowd.
I was going to say 'but that was about erasing 1935 as the date for the sealing of the annointed...not for identifying the Great Crowd'...but thinking about it one followed the other right?
Yes, that's right. From the old United in Worship book in the '80s:
uw chap. 14 pp. 111-112 par. 6 ‘I Make a Covenant With You for a Kingdom’
In time the prescribed but limited number of 144,000 would be filled. The final sealing of these spiritual Israelites as approved would be near. (Rev. 7:1-8) Then Jehovah, by means of his spirit and the understanding of his Word that he made possible for his visible organization, would direct matters so as to fulfill another part of his purpose, as described in Revelation 7:9-17. A “great crowd” out of all nations would be gathered, with the thrilling prospect of surviving the great tribulation and living forever in perfection amid an earthly Paradise. When we consider what has actually occurred, it seems evident that the heavenly calling in general was completed by about the year 1935 C.E., when the earthly hope of the “great crowd” was clearly discerned. Since then there have been brought into association with the comparatively few thousand remaining ones of the heavenly class millions of worshipers of Jehovah who are earnestly hoping to live forever right here on earth.
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Vanderhoven7
marked as important
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prologos
ANN, thank you for the "immortality vs. everlasting" life question. once we realize that
the "anointed sheep" (they never say that) & "other sheep" congregation is the result of ignoring the Gentil influx,
We have the One Flock, Christians in the 12 tribes of the Israel of God. ISRAEL always stands for Gods worshippers ON EARTH.
Rev 7 shows that 12 x 12 000 are secretly, invisibly SEALED OUT from among them to share Christ's fate and immortal heavenly destiny.
You have to be an angel, or martyred and resurrected to know for sure if you are, were sealed.
Being sealed is not an earthly, it is an anonemous, hidden, heavenly, future thing. That is why we have the concept of the FIRST RESURRECTION. starting with Christ.
WT has created through error a division, a two tier congregation and then kept the good thing when they saw it.
The Israel of God on the other hand is one equal brotherhood. There is no ascendency among the 12 spiritual tribes, unlike Israel of old.
The Irael of God on earth is not "two groups".
WT is a RULING ARRANGEMENT : Divide the one flock, and rule.
Having any ruler made Immortal scares me, glad that Satan (if any) demons (if any) are not immortal.
The creator obviously knew what he was doing when making the Cosmos, and we can trust that this competence will prevail in the granting of immortality.
Life is good, everlasting would be a pleasant surprise.
Yes, and since the latter day "replacement anointed" come out of the great crowd, you cant have one without the other, using wt definition here.
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AnnOMaly
I cannot agree with the idea of two destinies (heaven vs. earth) for Christians.
You sound a little 'Bible Studenty' (not to mention Gnostic) in that there is this secret, special group who will be chosen to rule with Christ but nobody knows yet who that will be. The reason the 'great crowd' couldn't be identified by the BSs pre-1935 was because the only ones who could judge whether or not a spirit-begotten Christian had been negligent in their faithfulness and commitment were Jehovah and Jesus, and that wouldn't be determined until the heavenly class got to heaven - it was there they'd be segregated into the (144k) kings/priests and ('great crowd') Levitical classes. So your view reminds me of that.
Immortality means 'doesn't die' rather than 'cannot die.' The only One who cannot die is God Himself. Immortality granted to His creation is conditional, not an inherent quality. That's how I see it anyway.
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prologos
ann, I do not think the Earth can be a destiny, like final residence, for it has, barring a miraculous intervention, suspending the laws of nature,
an expiration date +- 5 billion years, far short of an everlasting, eternal life, existence.
I thought there is a destinction between everlasting life and immortality.
Adam and Jesus had everlasting life. Contingent on faithfulness, respecting gravity etc.
Adam lost it and did not get to, - or keep-,- eating of the tree of life, so his live was not lasting.ever.
When Jesus was resurrected did he not become "the first who has [received] immortality?"
a step up from the conditional everlasting life he gave up for us?
I have no problems with those that are martyred , sealed, to get special treatment in the after life (if any).
wether I am an gnostic or not, what others think of me ,
is none of my business. because:
If there was no talking snake,
the whole thing could be fake.
but it beats filling in a cross word puzzle.
smile.
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*lost*
Prologos
I sometimes wonder what would of happened if Jesus had succumbed to the Devils temptations, and not remained faithful.
Have you done any research on Demons and angels ?
It's on my long list of 'to do's'
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Bobcat
Bats:
"Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom." This little flock, which eventually numbers 144,000, comes into this new, or second, sheepfold . But Jesus goes on to observe: "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."
Since the "other sheep" are "not of this fold," they must be of another fold, a third one. These last two folds, or pens of sheep, have different destinies. The "little flock" in one fold will rule with Christ in heaven, and the "other sheep" in the other fold will live on the Paradise earth. Yet, despite being in two folds, the sheep have no jealousy, nor do they feel segregated, for as Jesus says, they "become one flock" under "one shepherd."
The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, chap. 80 - The Sheepfolds and the Shepherd
I wasn't sure if your quote here is tongue in cheek or not. But for the sake of any lurkers, See here (my post # 636) for an analysis of the good shepherd parable of John 10.
There is actually only one "sheepfold" referred to in the parable. The sheepfold (Greek aule, Strong's # 833) in verse 1 is the same as the "fold" in verse 16. (Same Greek word.) "Sheepfold" (better rendered "courtyard") refers to an in-town enclosure (often connected to a house) in which sheep (often multiple flocks) are housed. It would have a literal door and a "door keeper" who served as a security guard over the multiple flocks in there. The door keeper would know who the shepherds of the various flock were, and so would only allow them to remove their particular flock.
The enclosure referred to in verses 7 - 15 is a wilderness enclosure (not referred to as a "courtyard" or "sheepfold"), without a door, which allowed the sheep to go in and out at will to feed. The shepherd would sit in the opening acting as a "door" to protect the sheep when they were within it.
The "fold" in verse 16 is referreing to the "sheepfold" in verse 1. It is not said in the parable where these "other sheep" come from. Only that they are not "out of" or "belonging to" (Greek preposition ek) the "sheepfold" in verse 1. They join the first sheep, whom the good shepherd has already gotten out of the courtyard and taken them into the wilderness to feed, where they become "one flock" as they feed together. The parable does not say where the good shepherd eventually houses this new "one flock." It only describes them in the wilderness feeding and being protected by the good shepherd.
The two paragraphs from the GT book above are a sorry distortion of first century shepherding practices, as well as improper mixing of contexts (the sheep of John 10 with the "little flock" of Luke 12). The parable in John 10 only speaks of "everlasting life." It says nothing about where any sheep will end up, or who will rule, etc.
And how about: "Despite being in two folds, the sheep have no jealousy, nor do they feel segregated." How do they know this? Do they take polls? You can't even write to them to question this without getting interrogated.
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prologos
lost: Jesus, the story goes, was equivalent to Adam, who also created perfect, did not have everlasting life, because that came only by eating or continuing to eat of the tree of life right. Similarly
Jesus outliving his contemporaries would have depended on faithfullness.
Jesus would have become a normal human, just as
Adam was reduced, physically, to the normal animal level.
Jesus would have lost angelic protection and died, as he did anyway. at a joung age. too bad they could not have postponed his execution to the year 1000 CE to prove that he really was perfect, more so than Methusalah.
if WT writers supporters read bobcat above, they will not try to argue their doctrine.