Design or Non-Design, finally we know, Darwin's Doubt

by QC 371 Replies latest jw friends

  • bohm
    bohm

    QC: Design can be the Occam's razor cause-and-effect best answer for the scientific evidence found in creation.

    The "principle of design" (artifacts, code, instructions, etc.) is the criteria SETI uses as it searches for intelligence in outer space.

    Design has nothing with religion.

    This broadly fall within my area of research. Just to make it clear, there exist no "principle of design" in science which applies to artifacts, codes, etc.

    I assume this is an of-the-hand reference to dembskis work. I have actually read Dembskis articles, it is not hard to do from a mathematical perspective, one just have to be aware dembskis is a shit scientific writer and has a habit of defining terms in one way and using them in another way later on. I claim the main assertings made by dembski (and more often, his uninformed proponents) about the ability to "infer design" are trivially wrong, and that much is obvious by simply reading what he write.

    To this day i have never met a person who at the same time (1) understood Dembskis writing and the relevant scientific litterature (shannon, etc.) (2) thought dembski was right.

    If you think you fall in both categories, do explain yourself. if you only belong to one, well....

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    This looks like an interesting book.

    The thing that has always made me wonder if evolution may be directed somehow is the issue of convergence. How is it that different life forms independently arrived at similar solutions to problems? Even taking into account environment as the common driver, it still makes you wonder if there might not be some hand directing things.

  • bohm
    bohm

    SBF: This, along the remarks about "pretty girl" in the thread on Ray Comfort sort of makes one consider if you are just aiming for a bit of trolling...

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Really? I give up. Enjoy yourself.

  • QC
    QC
    bohm: "there exist no "principle of design" in science which applies to artifacts, codes, etc."

    Fibonacci and other mathematic ratio beauty DESIGN patterns (above) permeate our scenery of plants, animals and humans on displays, as well as stock markets trade arrays. This sophistication is not by chance.

    Then there's the eye ball test that sees the "principle of design" intrinsic to ANY communication created by intelligence, e.g. every POST on this forum is a written communication DESIGN; every software CODE is a digital instruction DESIGN; every artifact (made object, e.g. product, artwork, manuscript, clay tablet, inscription cylinder, stele, etc.) is an intelligent fabrication DESIGN.

    As well, the "principle of design" is pervasive in the cosmos. Laws of physics e.g. conservation laws of energy and matter, motion, gravity and entropy, etc., are all DESIGNED to keep the universe perpetually sustained.

    Additional clarity of the unmistakable DESIGN reality:

    The Earth, Moon and Sun alignment distances are clearly intentional (not by chance).

    (8 min) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mdjM4-gRGg

    Water is a very special prerequisite (not by chance).

    (4 min) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtjyUElU6n0

    Note all the things LIFE requires (not by chance). Amazing!

    (7 min) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQQm_H7Eo8A

    The Earth is first of its kind in the cosmos (not by chance). Profound!

    (3 min)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_lTrTSXuk

  • TheClarinetist
    TheClarinetist

    QC: A couple of things....

    First, in regards to abiogenisis. There are two distinct types of abiogenisis, one of which is discredited, and the other of which is [at least currently] a legitimate field of study. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Abiogenesis . I'm surprised no one mentioned the first, because that's the first thing I thought when I read that definition. Also, dictionary.com is a very, very weak source for a scientific discussion... just saying.

    As far as the way the Earth seems designed to support life: that is completely irrelevant. The Earth will seemingly designed to support life whether we evolved or were created. If it weren't compatible with life, we wouldn't have evolved on it, or God wouldn't have put us here, respectively.

    Finally, in regards to your thesis about the Cambrian explosion being evidence against evolution: So what if it is? If complex life suddenly appeared at the Cambrian explosion, it would not invalidate the large amount of evidence for evolution that has occurred since then. It would be a mystery that we would have to explain, and it would be quite possible that the answer was "and God/some aliens/something dropped off a bunch of animals that then evolved into us". Science has to take into account all of the evidence around us, and a new theory would have to be made which would take into account both the myriad transitional fossils that happened later in addition to the sudden appearance in the Cambrian. As it is, though, it looks like you got your ass handed to you already as far as your argument for that is concerned.

  • bohm
    bohm

    QC: Fibonacci and other mathematic ratio beauty DESIGN patterns (above) permeate our scenery of plants, animals and humans on displays, as well as stock markets trade arrays. This sophistication is not by chance.

    No, its by evolution.

    Then there's the eye ball test that sees the "principle of design" intrinsic to ANY communication created by intelligence, e.g. every POST on this forum is a written communication DESIGN; every software CODE is a digital instruction DESIGN; every artifact (made object, e.g. product, artwork, manuscript, clay tablet, inscription cylinder, stele, etc.) is an intelligent fabrication DESIGN.

    Sure they are because (tada!) they were the product of design. Natural processes can also give rise to things that seem designed. You are just using bad logic; i can give you countless examples of spherical man-made things and therefore conclude everything spherical must be man made; but it just does not follow because it does not follow if man can do X, nature cannot do X.

    Insidently, we have *observed* how nature tinker and improve its design.

    BTW, do you understand dembski yourself, or are you just copy-pasting things you do not understand yourself in the hopes it will convince others?

  • cofty
    cofty

    SBF - WHen you look at convergent evolution at a genetic level it is clearly not designed.

    Research Howler monkey opsin genes compared to Old World monkey opsin genes for a good example.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I'll look up that, Howler monkey and old World monkey. Cofty it is great that someone as knowledgeable about evolution as you posts on the forum, because it is such an important issue to understand for people exiting the JWs. You are a real asset to the forum.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thank you. I apologise for judging you last night on another thread. I shouldn't post when I am tired and grouchy.

    If I get time I will post some details on the Common Ancestry thread about comparative genetics of convergent evolution.

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