"The organisation is imperfect, but it doesn't affect my relationship with Jehovah"
by Alive! 160 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Introvert 2
NewYork44M 6 minutes ago
There is no way that I will ever read all these posts. The topic seems to have generated a lot of activity.
Here is my take on the issue of maintaining a "relationship with Jehovah."
I tried - I really did try. But what I found is that the relationship was one sided. If I exerted effort or if I did not exert any effort the response from Jehovah was the same. I got nothing in return for my effort or lack of effort.
I used to pray regularly. I decided not to pray after a point of non-response from my repeated prayers. What I got from the other side of the relationship no matter what I did was the same - NOTHING.
No longer am I interested in a one-sided relationship. So, if you think you have a relationship well then, god bless you. But I think that under a reasonable level of objectivity that you have a relationship, you are probably deluding yourself.
NY44M,
Jehovah gives to us generously every day. I am grateful for the warm sun on my face when I go out for a run. And today I went to get some parts for a bike and when I was waiting outside the shop near the river some geese flew over, coming home again for the summer.
It was beautiful and fear inspiring all at once, they were so low.
That and the hope of a longer life than the one we know of.Simple and childish, yes. The kingdom will be given to such like ones, the meek.
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RoyalFlushPhil
Marvin Shillmer's research in to this topic shows how easy the witness mind is to confuse, not very hard to confuse people use to a low-protein Bible nutrition diet. Cults were notorious making their followers have as little protein as possible because it reduces the brain's ability to sort through fact and fluff. JWs don't know the Bible, if they did, they would not have any affiliation with enemies of Jesus Christ! Fisherman it's not me who is ignorant of the facts, how come those in Mexico were signing the "Military Cards and joining it" while those in Malawii could not sign something less demanding than documents sighed by the Watchtower's Leaders and Mexico's Witnesses who joined the Military?
"From the late 19th Century until the 1970s leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses were pledging the national oath of allegiance to the United States government. It is paradoxical to pledge allegiance to a country and at the same time claim not to. Jehovah’s Witnesses have asserted that they refuse to pledge allegiance to national governments, yet this is precisely what Nathan Homer Knorr, president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, did on multiple occasions on his personal passport applications.26 Historical records document that other Watch Tower presidents also took the same oath of allegiance.27, 28, 29 Watch Tower literature draws a distinction between full and relative allegiance to national governments and laws.30 Since in terms of allegiance the national oath carries the same weight as—if not more than—the pledge of allegiance to the U.S. government routinely offered by children in schools it leaves one to wonder what makes one offensive and the other not?31 Watch Tower leaders have asserted a strong position against pledges of allegiance to governments, referring to such pledges as a Devil inspired scheme.32 Quoting Daniel P. Mannix, Watch Tower literature states, “Christians refused to . . . sacrifice to the emperor’s genius—roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag or repeat the oath of allegiance. . .”33 Jehovah's Witness leaders have applied these words to their followers, making a show of abiding by them. However, again noting that Mannix cites the oath of allegiance as a modernday rough equivalent to sacrificing to Roman emperors—an act of worship—one cannot avoid the fact that leaders of Jehovah’s Witnesses were pledging the oath of allegiance. Jehovah’s Witnesses have identified taking national oaths of allegiance as acts of worship, as “religions” and “religious expression.”34, 35, 36 If we accept Mannix’s statement, as the Watch Tower Society apparently wants its readers to do, or if we accept the religion’s own statements, we are forced to conclude Jehovah’s Witnesses’ leaders engaged in a form of contemporary Emperor worship and/or idolatry. The rank and file of Jehovah’s Witnesses has taken a decidedly different position than its leaders. Rather than taking the oath of allegiance to national governments, rank and file members have been willing to suffer harsh deprivation and severe persecution, including rape and murder. It is well known that beginning in the 1930s children of Jehovah’s Witnesses were a primary focus of persecution for refusing to salute the flag and/or to pledge the oath of allegiance in schools.37, 38 Today young children of Jehovah’s Witnesses are still exposed to ridicule from peers because, as instructed by their religion, they are taught by their parents to refuse to pledge the oath of allegiance or to salute the flag in school.39 Page 3 Jehovah’s Witnesses"
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RoyalFlushPhil
Marvin goes on to show further the insanity of this position you claim we are all ignorant of!
"Jehovah’s Witnesses have lost employment because they understood a tenet of their religion is that it is wrong for Christians to pledge the oath of allegiance, and accordingly they refused.40, 41 Employers have been forced to pay monetary awards to Jehovah’s Witnesses when these have lost employment or employment opportunity for refusing to take the oath as a central tenet taught by their religion. For example, in the early 1990s two Jehovah’s Witnesses, Lanell Bessard and Tanella Bridges, successfully sued the California Community College system. They were refused employment because they objected to signing the oath of allegiance. UPI news service reported that a federal jury awarded the two women nearly $260,000 in damages.42 A central premise of their lawsuit was that the California employer conditioned employment on an oath their religion prohibited them from taking.43 Yet the wording these Jehovah’s Witness plaintiffs objected to is specifically found in the oath of allegiance that presidents of Watch Tower pledged without any mental reservation. In the small African nation of Malawi Jehovah’s Witnesses experienced national expulsion, rape and murder because of their belief that they “can give their allegiance only to Jehovah God and his Kingdom.”44 The religious position taught by Watch Tower to Jehovah’s Witnesses is not all it seems to be. When leaders need a passport it is acceptable for them to pledge the oath of allegiance to the United States. When young children are in school it is unacceptable for them to pledge the oath of allegiance to the United States. In the landmark Barnette v West Virginia State Board of Education, Jehovah’s Witness leaders offered an alternate pledge for children of Jehovah's Witness. This alternate pledge reads: “I have pledged my unqualified allegiance and devotion to Jehovah, the Almighty God, and to His Kingdom, for which Jesus commands all Christians to pray. I respect the flag of the United States and acknowledge it as a symbol of freedom and justice to all. I pledge allegiance and obedience to all the laws of the United States that are consistent with God's law, as set forth in the Bible.”45
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RoyalFlushPhil
Fisherman, it's you who does not understand this religion, it's people like you who helped the Sisters and Children in all sorts of Countries get raped and killed because you force people to follow a religion that inflicts a cruel mental torture, promotes family destruction, brings about a mind-numbing state of confusion. Watchtower also is the best a splitting scriptures by twisting their simple original meaning from the Gospel message, in to some convoluted Pharisaical system of beliefs that's finally falling apart because it's wicked! The easy idea that "Pledges to National loyalty" is a form of Nationalism can't be refuted, nice try at trying to debunk the obvious truth. Next time around you might consider joining the Scientology Movement because they are also good at making people obey and believe the most insane stuff! -
Brother Jeramy
There's a tremendous amount of vitriol in the comments, both generally and in some cases toward me directly, that I find quite curious and immensely telling. I'm not certain what motivates some to such negativity and animus.
No one on here knows me. No one on here knows my story, nor my journey of the past thirty years. Also, I have not insisted that anyone here see things my way, nor have I criticized, berated, or insulted anyone who doesn't accept the things I've expressed.
And yet a number on here have cast harsh criticisms and insults at me for where I stand and for the position I have chosen to maintain in my life and faith.
Why is this, I must wonder?
Have I somehow done something to these folks who have thrown insults and harsh criticisms at me?
No.
So again, I wonder at the motivations to such unprovoked negativity. What is it to them that I make a choice that has nothing to do with them? What do such people want, ultimately, that they feel so motivated to negativity and insults?
What I find telling is how some have referred to me, both explicitly and by insinuation, as "deluded" due to my remaining active -- and happily active, I might add -- among the brothers and sisters who are Jehovah's Witnesses. It is telling because this form of casting of aspersions is the same tactic the Governing Body employs, namely they call people deluded, either by inference or at times directly, who do not see things their way or who do things contrary to their will.
So, then, what's the difference if the Governing Body does this or if former Jehovah's Witnesses do it?
Same tactics, different side of the same coin.
Beyond this brief reflection, I'm content to pay no attention to any negativity or those who foment it. I'll keep my responses to those who can be reasonable, balanced, and respectful. And positive.
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LisaRose
then, what's the difference if the Governing Body does this or if former Jehovah's Witnesses do it?
The difference is we don't want your heart, your soul or your money.
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Village Idiot
Brother Jeramy,
"No, I did not seek any kind of rebaptism. There is only "one baptism," and inasmuch as I ended up coming to reject the Watchtower Society's baptismal formula that I originally affirmed at my own baptism, I also know that Jehovah is not bound by human formulas."
If you had a Catholic baptism does that mean that you don't have to be rebaptized? Which is worse, Catholic baptism or JW organization baptism?
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Fernando
Hey brother Jeramy
You make some very good, rational and well considered points.
I do apologise for those instances you have noted in the first four paragraphs of your post above.
It seems to me you are on a journey just like the rest of us.
It also seems to me that you are at a relatively good point on this journey.
We should be able to find it in our hearts to support and encourage each other as we try to make sense of present and past abuse and deception.
If you choose to focus on the Good News (or gospel) according to Paul (and others such as Moses, Isaiah, and Psalms), and if you pursue it relentlessly, you will be truly amazed at where the breathtaking journey takes you.
Greetings and blessings
Fernando
SEQ, Australia
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OUTLAW
Outlaw he's ducking and dodging the question and proof you showed him, it's classic JW Argument tactics, I really am surprised he did not tell you "I will go research this topic and come back to your house with satisfying answers explaining a good reason why we did this!.....RoyalFlushPhil
Hey RFP!..
I don`t expect intelligent conversations with JW Apologists..
It very rarely happens..They stopped thinking a long time ago..
They`ve been "BrainWashed" to reject any Negative Information about the WBT$..
Even if it`s "OFFICIAL" WBT$ Information..
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