Aren't we all egotists?
He made a terrific comeback, and says he wants to learn from his mistakes. All power to him. Plus anyone in with a shout of defeating that God awful conservative you got waiting in the wings over there deserves support.
Rudds new asylum seeker policy
by barry 110 Replies latest jw friends
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doofdaddy
Agreed Slimboyfat and great to get an American perspective on Aussie politics.
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Julia Orwell
Hiya Barry, could you post me links to the evidence of the 90% who destroy their documents? This would surely change my perspective on boat people.
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Jeffro
Julia Orwell:
Consider that a relatively small amount of people come here via boats but they're visible and easy to be for political target practice. Less visible are the ones who come on holiday, students or working visas and simply don't get back on the plane. They disappear into the cities and get cash jobs.
Both sides of politics in Australia play with the whole issue like it's a political football, which is kind of pathetic.
Seeking asylum is not illegal, and isn't the same as illegally remaining in the country after arriving on a travel visa. However, most genuine asylum seekers arriving in Australia do come by plane.
But something should be done to discourage people from getting on boats arranged by people smugglers. Not because it's illegal. And certainly not because Australia is being 'overrun' by 'boat people'. But because it is dangerous.
The alternative offered by the conservatives to magically "stop the boats" is incredibly naive, and ignores the fact that other international factors quite apart from lame political slogans are the cause of people taking the risk on a leaky boat. And the claim that they'll just 'turn the boats around' (but "only when it's safe to do so") is another meaningless catchphrase, because it's basically never safe to do so.
smiddy:
And to be fair it will put a brake on the amount of boatloads of people coming here , and of course the potential danger of drownings that we have seen in the past.
I don't think it would be improper to settle people in PNG instead of Australia (though nor do I think it would 'stop the boats'). And Australia's territorial waters go just about to the beach of PNG, so if they are escorted that far, they'd be far less likely to drown than being marooned at Indonesia's boundary.
doofdaddy:
It appears (if we can trust the media) is that these people fly into Indonesia, which obviously requires a passport, get a Visa On Arrival which is basically a stamp for $25 US, burn their passports and any documentation and pay to be taken by leakey boat which gets a sympathy vote from the media and wait for the Aust navy to "rescue" them.
Ah, you mean the 'politically neutral' Australian media?
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barry
Gday Julia,
A program on TV during the week on ABC I think there was a Liberal party man and a LAbour party man. I don't know their names I don't follow politics much. The very arguement was used above that under Labour 90% are put to the back of the que because they have no papers but under the Liberals that 90% would not be settleled in Australia because they have no proof of who they are. Both the Labour and the Liberal side didn't refute the 90% figure.
I have a customer a lawyer who wrote the United nations refugee laws into Australian law and have asked him many questions about people who come here without papers and Australias obligation. I asked him specifically about the 90% and he said that was about right. Mr McGilvary is from the states and loves baseball. He plays in baseball teams here in Canberra even though he only has one leg.
You are right though most illegial entrants come here on planes.
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barry
It is claimed by asylum advocates that many asylum seekers enter Indonesia with false documents and this is why those documents are destroyed but the program I saw this was brought up with the belief it would be better to supply even forged documents as this gives some evidence to follow up claims being made.
When the new policy was announced asylum seekers in Indonesia have said they now wouldn't make the trip to Australia but would register with the UNHCR. Which is a requirement for their claim through the proper channels. Why don't these people register? According to law they are required to register at the first place of safety not travel half way around the world and pick the richest country they can find. Barry
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doofdaddy
I agree with the posters who say we can't trust the media but where do you get your information from? I class the ABC, Al Jazeera as media. I don't take any Murdoch media seriously.
Even though it's off topic I agree that most illegals come in by plane and don't leave. Actually I know many live in my high tourist area. I met a(n Australian) Customs officer in Bali who said they are overwhelmed and Immigration is worse. Today's news (ABC) finally exposed the racket in Indian student scams where approx 50% of applications were fraudulent. One guy had been kicked out, changed his birth date returned and took his claim to court after being knocked back again! Finally he was exposed. Of course the real criminals are the immigration agents who fleece the desperate.
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still thinking
How many asylum seekers have died trying to reach Australia?
A question for Professor Sharon Pickering.
NEARLY 1000 asylum seekers have died trying to reach Australia in the past decade, and 27 have died in Australian detention centres in the past 12 years, according to Border Crossing Observatory data. Monash University criminologist and Australian Research Council future fellow Sharon Pickering, who works at the observatory, warns those numbers could be higher but it's impossible to know, since no official record is kept by a government agency.
Why did you being compiling a database?
When [my colleague] Dr Leanne Weber and I began the Australian Border Deaths Database and made it publicly available, we noticed Australia was well behind Europe and North America in terms of identifying and responding to border-related deaths.
How?
Europe and North America had been compiling significant data on the ways people die when crossing borders, and policy makers and academics have been asking key questions about the relationship between those deaths and increasing border controls at the edges of Europe and in North America, particularly at the US-Mexico border. We began the Australian database to establish the nature and extent of border related deaths and how best to respond and prevent these deaths.
How did you uncover the 27 deaths in Australian detention centres?
We trawled all publicly available information relating to border-related deaths, then we tried to crosscheck that information wherever possible. This is our best estimate — and that's one reason that in relation to deaths in immigration detention and migration custody we've called on the Australian Institute of Criminology to include these deaths in its National Deaths in Custody Monitoring program [running since 1992].
Especially now?
This is particularly important when the numbers in Australia's immigration detention system are increasing [the system housed about 5000 people in the past 12 months] and also given Australia is expanding its offshore detention centres in Nauru and Papua New Guinea.
Do you know how those 27 people died?
Worryingly, our estimates show that 11 people died of suicide in immigration detention. But there is a range of causes, including natural causes. Our concern is that without any official oversight of these deaths as "deaths in custody", we are not learning the lessons in terms of preventing deaths. So this is significant time when Australia needs to ratify the optional protocol on the UN Convention against Torture in relation to increased monitoring and oversight of custodial settings. We cannot stop deaths in custody unless we have robust reporting and recording mechanisms to chart patterns and trends in relation to these deaths — so that governments and civil society can better respond.
Explain why.
As criminologists, we want to be able to understand how they compare with deaths in other forms of custody for example: deaths in remand, deaths in police custody, or death in prisons. We are also calling for the inclusion in the AIC program of deaths in migration custody — that is, in the custody of immigration officials — to be made publicly available.
There is no agency responsible for keeping track of Australian border-related deaths?
No. But remember also we don't have an official, publicly available record of all border-related deaths — even with the Houston panel [the Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers, which released its report in August], when we had political and public attention focused on concerns around deaths of asylum seekers.
Could some agencies or departments have their own tally, not publicly available?
I don't know if any one place has that information. In the Houston report, there were references to data held by Customs and the Department of Immigration.
How does that situation compare with other nations?
One of the things we came up against when started our research for our book, Globalisation and Borders: Death of the Global Frontier, is that in the US and Europe you can simply click through to this information on the internet. In Australia, at best, it takes an awful lot of digging. We don't think the Border Crossing Observatory database should be the only one publicly available; indeed, we are calling on the government to establish its own.
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still thinking
I don't think the number of asylum seekers is excessive enough to warrant this behaviour. Plus PNG has a very poor human rights record. If the numbers are increasing...it is because their situation is dire and they are desperate to escape. I hope people think about how they would feel if they had risked taking their families in a boat only to be turned away when they are desperate for help. People do not seek assylum and go to such drastic measures risking their lives and the lives of their families for no reason.
You never know...one day you may be in the same boat.
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mP
Slim
Aren't we all egotists?
He made a terrific comeback, and says he wants to learn from his mistakes.
mP:
You obviously have not read what his own party members said of Kevin when he previously was PM. He was a real areshole control freak and thats why they removed their support.
Every mistake K makes costs me money. Do the math 4B a year wasted * 7 years = 28B and i havent even counted the fact all those boat people never get a job and get $70K a year welfare. Only about 1 million Aussies actually pay tax, everybody else receives more benefits than their tax covers. Kevin has pissed $30k of my money on crap and that doesnt cover the thousands i pay for dole bludgers.
The sad thing is Howard had a solution that worked perfectly well and could have saved tens of billions.
Slim
All power to him. Plus anyone in with a shout of defeating that God awful conservative you got waiting in the wings over there deserves support.
mP:
Hes an idiot. Everything he touches he fucks up majorly. If he had any dignity he would resign and stop playing god with other peoples money on the scale he has.
im not discussing the libs that is a separate matter.