One comment to larc in particular. If you think this board, or others like it, is in any way a representative sample of JWs you're making an enormous leap of faith. This is a very small subset, a vocal group of ex or marginal Witnesses with negative experiences that they are prepared to continually revisit for some purpose not very clear to me, some kind of catharsis I guess. The number, compared to the numbers of Witnesses as a whole, is statistically not that significant. By the way, I am not denying that these negative experiences are real though I think some things look worse in retrospect and to be fair some things look better.
Do Kids Hate Being JW`s?
by Englishman 95 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
larc
Xandit,
For openers, I don't think you are lying and I'm not from Lower Slobovia. Also, there is no way of knowing if this is a representative sample of those who leave. I just know that on a percentage basis I hear a lot more stories of suppresion of individuality than I hear of stories of unique achievement by someone in the JW culture.
I went to college in 1960. However, almost no one else did that in Akron, Ohio. I asked where you are from, and why you think it was different there? You said that you went to college. What percent of others in your area did the same thing? I'm asking for objective data, and I'm not trying to be critical.
In my own case, I "broke the rules" in several ways. I played on the baseball team in high school, dated "wordly girls", was a member of the HiY club, and most of my day-today friends were from my high school, not my congregation.
On the social stuff, the JW kids occasionally had roller skating parties and parties at someone's house where we danced to rock and roll tunes. We didn't have regular softball games, because there weren't enough of us you could get altogether at any one time.
I wonder if maybe it is more oppressive for the woman than the men, although as a male I was pretty well programed despite the exceptions I mentioned above. I still wonder about your 1975 conclusions, but my knowledge their is second hand. I was out already. Again, however, most that left said that this was turning point for many.Finally, with your "grain of sand" approach, it sounds like you never really did but it in the first place. My wife was like that, fortunately for me.
-
larc
Correction,
That last part should read "never did buy it in the first place" Goes to show you that I never make MISTRAKES.
-
Sassenach
About this group being a representative sample:
I have lurked at other sites like witnesses.net and witnesses online. On the the parenting forums as well as others there were threads on how to keep your children apart from worldly children. Also, there were experiences about not playing with worldly children as youths and not getting involved in school activities. The difference was that those on witnesses.net spoke of how glad they were that their parents didn't allow them to play with worldly children or get involved in sports.
If you compare the various online jehovahs witness' forums, ex jw and jw, the experiences are pretty consistent. The perception as to whether it was a positive or negative experience seems to be what differs here.
None of the jehovah's witnesses that I know personally allow their children to participate in school activities. The woman that my grandmother studies with does not even allow her children to play with non-jehovah's witnesses. The people I know take their religion very seriously and I believe that they are sincere in thinking that they are doing what is right. At least if they are sincere I can respect them, but to belong to a religion and go door to door making converts and then say that they "take it with a grain of salt" sounds very hypocritical to me.
I just wanted to edit this and add that, I think some people have compelling reasons for maintaining their status as one of jehovahs-witnesses even though they do not believe everything that is taught. I didn't intend to call those ones hypocrits.
Edited by - Sassenach on 14 February 2001 2:32:22
-
larc
Xandit,
One thing I am not clear on. What is your status today regarding the Witness culture. Are you in, out, or in between?
-
Latte
Xandit,
I posted the 1950's quote more for amusement.
I'm afraid that I was'nt around in the 1950's!! so I am in no way, in a position to say if that was taken seriously by everyone. However, I have a suspicion that there would have been some that did take it seriously. Clearly the writer thought it appropriate and timely to have it published.
I know in my cong, the CO always frownd upon the idea of 'large gatherings'. One lovely sister tried to get a monthly 'barn dance' going, of course this was a no-no. We had only ONE , I remember it with great fondness. After that nothing except the occasional get together, or hike.
I don't consider myself to of had a 'bad' upbringing as a JW, I have enjoyed some of the best friends ever. My feelings now are that there is NO absolute truth, there is so many ways of looking at things. These DB have helped me to see that, and if you stick around you will see that it's NOT all negative, it is discussions on subjects that I have been 'starved' of. The tunnel vision of the 'org' is not healthy for me. The discussions on here, and other boards, have confirmed feelings that I've had for many years. Now the conflicts are gone.
Xandit. I admire your balance re: recreation, in that you recognize where the society should have no say.
Hope that you stick around.Latte
-
Pathofthorns
The discussions on here, and other boards, have confirmed feelings that I've had for many years. Now the conflicts are gone.
I enjoyed this comment Latte. There are many things that are troubling when you are a thinking Witness. You just can't put your finger on what it is exactly.
Understanding why it was the way it was has finally let me have some peace from all the questions and conflicts.
As for my upbringing, I can't say it was horrible or I have too many regrets. My parents did the best with what they knew. And increasingly free thinking amongst young people created a pretty good social atmosphere, some times to the point that non-witnesses were almost envious of the set-up.
Even the meetings I eventually never minded too much. But in retrospect there was just so much time wasted on such things that were empty and that is perhaps my biggest regret. It would have been nice to have devoted that time to some worthwhile endeavours.
Path
-
Xandit
larc you and I are a whole lot closer in experience than I realized. Addressing your questions.
In my area only a very limited number pursued higher educaction of any kind. There were quite a few Witnesses that had some education and we had a couple of COs that had degrees and I think that made a difference. I'm pleased to say that's not the case now, at least in my area. I think you're looking at something around 40% are doing something beyond high school, maybe 25% going for at least a Bachelor's. I consider that very encouraging since the US average is about 30% going to college. The dreaded home schooling thing hasn't taken hold here like it has in some areas either.
Yes, I think it is harder for women.
"One thing I am not clear on. What is your status today regarding the Witness culture. Are you in, out, or in between?"
What a good question. Not one that I have a can definitively answer because I don't define myself in those terms. I'm a Christian, I think the basic doctrine as espoused by Witnesses is pretty sound, I think all explanation of prophecy is speculative and that biblical chronology is almost indeciperable in most cases, some of the base dates are probably wrong, maybe by as much as two hundred years, I believe in conduct that is simply and clearly defined by the scriptures not that which is extrapolated or interpolated, I think people should mind their own business, I believe that a public ministry is a necessity for Christians but that it must be in balance with all other aspects of the Christian personality, etc. I could go on for a few pages probably. So I don't really know how to answer your question other than to say I feel personally answerable to God and that the names of organizations doesn't have much to do with that. Not a very good answer I'm afraid and the grammar is horrible but I don't have time to fix it.
Edited by - Xandit on 15 February 2001 23:33:41
-
ianao
Xandit:
I know that was probably hard to say, but I hear what you are saying. Good for you.
-
waiting
Hey y'all,
I have a fine 20 yr old jw male working for me. Home schooled, very good in his area of manual labor. I value his work, he likes what he does, and sees no point in a high school diploma. His sisters did graduate high school, now pioneer and clean houses. All are very talented children.
However, he & I have tangled in the past about the jw doctrine, he accepts what is written, never questions, and if I argue the word-for-word writings of the articles - he backs up on "well, you know what the Society "means" to say." Such as the Insight definition on Lying.
This is my store, and he works for me. I use the computer when bored to come to this forum or browse. He knows I read a lot on the web. Now, primarily because I'm a woman, he's a brother, I'm supposed to endure his comments to me such as the last two days: "There is no good Jehovah's Witness web site on the Internet." I countered - what about the official website? "Well, besides that one. But all others are apostate. You can't tell who you're talking with - better not talk to anyone than take the chance of talking to an apostate. The Society has written about the dangers. I listen to all they teach."
Then, this gem yesterday: "I don't need to know anything about the Society from other people. Whatever I need to know the Society tells me."
Granted, he seems a bit more pompous than the average, but the closed mindedness is average for around here. The women are even more closed minded than the men. An elder on the Lousiville newspaper report on pedophiles: "Apostates wrote that." Mother-in-law on blood - did she understand the changes? "It's on my card - that's all I need to know." Sister-in-law about letting her teenage son even think about college. "What's wrong with being content with working with your hands?" He wants to go, but won't buck his parents.
This is a mid-sized city in the South usa. The comments are from people in three different congregations. Closed mind, limited thinking would seem to be the order of the day. My son is one of the very few who went to college. I've had to defend him against older and younger brothers on a multitude of occasions for his "seeking to make a name for himself." Their label put upon my son.
Of course, being a woman, the brothers seem to feel at ease lecturing me on my poor decisions. They don't lecture my husband, who is a brother. Perhaps being a woman has more to do with the perspective of crappy opinions upon reflection than we realize? Any male seems to feel a freedom to lecture a female on her attitudes, actions. A male can do like Xandit and say kiss off - as long as he doesn't want a position of responsibilty.
Of course, according to WTBTS Lawyer Brother Moreno - any brother who doesn't have a position of responsibility within the congregation (such as a secretly confessed child molester) should be looked at with distrust. If he was trustworthy, he would have a position of responsibility. I guess the argument could be made that since a sister will never have a position of responsibility - she will always be looked at with distrust.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 14 February 2001 14:43:52