Paul belived paradise was heaven

by DS211 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • DS211
    DS211

    Now i want all to add whatever they want to. I was just reading the bible reading for tonights meeting and started 2 cor 12...and what i noticed was that Paul here is revealing something, a revelation or vision of sorts, here it says (and its from the NWT for lurkers)

    12 I have to boast. It is not beneficial; but I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of [the] Lord. 2 I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught away as such to the third heaven. 3 Yes, I know such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know, God knows— 4 that he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak.

    Pau reveals a few things 1) he reveals that he seems to not know whether the spirit leaves the body.(or thats how it looks) but most importantly he links paradise with heaven. Can anyone elaborate on this scripture for me?

  • James Brown
    James Brown

    That makes sense paradise is in heaven. The witnesses are wrong about everything they pontificate about.

    That's why it is a cult.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    I agree.

    My memory is hazy on this, but I believe the Watchtower explanation is Paul may have seen a vision of the “modern-day Organization”, the spiritual paradise. It’s always about them. LOL.

  • designs
    designs

    If Paul thought paradise was heaven it just shows how detached he was from Judaism, if he ever really was a Jew in the first place. Most christian denominations teach as formal orthodoxy the faithful will return to earth with Jesus and establish paradise here on earth and live forever on earth. Only a few denominations like the Lutherans and some of the Evangelicals preach 'heaven only'.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Designs has a good point. It could be a mix of the two, although the phrase " paradise earth " appears nowhere in the scriptures. If Angels could make physical bodies and visit the Earth, and Jesus did the same, then why couldn't a resurrected human? Whatever the restoration of all things entails is a little hazy. The Jews believed in the restoration of all things if I am not mistaken.

    It's true that the WTBTS is wrong about many things. I really belive they are wrong when they say that the immortal soul is a pagan teaching. Hear me out on this. Adam was a soul, that is a body created by YHWH, and a life placed within it by YHWH. He became a soul, a body and spirit. The WTBTS must downplay this or start admitting that they are wrong about related teachings, like when they say Jesus' spirit did not return to heaven, even though Jesus said that he was entrusting his spirit to his Father. They don't want to open that can of worms.

    So if Adam was a soul and he was purposed to live forever [ according to the WTBTS ] then he MUST have been created as an immortal soul. What else would you call a soul that never dies? Death is another matter. The WTBTS hold that death is oblivion/non-existence. Jesus said that death was just like sleep. I am sure that if death was oblivion/non-existence that Jesus would have said so.

    So how does this tie in with the Heaven or Earth paradise? If Adam was a Soul[ body and life ], then angels are souls too. They just have spirit bodies and can materialize in a human body if they desire to do so. Maybe we will be able to do the same someday. Perhaps this is what a "new creation" is. Christians are to be transformed in the blink of an eye. They are said to pass over from death to life, as if they never see death. Then again, all men are appointed to "die" once, like a seed "dies." It doesn't really die or no plant would exist after the seed, it simply transforms.

    That's my musings on that subject!

  • glenster
  • Perry
    Perry

    This is the traditional Christian view of what happened to your spirit when you died prior to Jesus' death payment. You either went to Paradise or Tartarus, both were different parts of Hell (Hades). During the three days Jesus was dead, he went to Hell and liberated the Paradise portion of Hell (Hades), and those spirits went to Heaven to await the resurrection of their bodies but now enjoyed direct fellowship with God through the blood-atoning value of Jesus.

    What Paul experienced was actually being in two places at the same time. His body was alive and breathing on earth while his spirit was supernaturally briefly taken to heaven. That is why he didn't know quite what happened.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Oh Lord so infinitely wise

    Where will you locate Para-dise?

    Will it be up?

    Will it be down?

    Will it be left?

    Will it be right?

    Please put your child out of such misery:

    Where the f*king hell will it be?

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    LOL, this will freak you out- more evidence of wacky 1st century beliefs only briefly mentioned in the Bible, from Wikipedia:

    In the Greek Pseudepigrapha Apocalypse of Moses the Third Heaven is the paradise where Michael buries Adam to await the resurrection of the dead. In the earlier section of the myth where Satan transforms himself to an angel of light, and works with the serpent to trick Eve, there is no identification of the Eden paradise as "Third Heaven", which may indicate that Adam and Eve's expulsion from paradise led to paradise being relocated in an area beyond human access.

    In the later Pseudepigrapha Book of the Secrets of Enoch, the Third Heaven is described as a location "between corruptibility and incorruptibility" (2 Enoch 8:5) containing the Tree of Life, "whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise." (Verse 3) Two springs in the Third Heaven, one of milk and the other of honey, along with two others of wine and oil, flow down into the Garden of Eden, which is also located there. (Verse 6) In contrast with the common concept of Paradise, 2 Enoch also describes a place of torment existing in the Third Heaven, "a very terrible place" with "all manner of tortures" in which merciless angels torment "those who dishonour God, who on earth practice sin against nature," including sodomites, sorcerers, enchanters, witches, the proud, thieves, liars and those guilty of various other transgressions. (2 Enoch 10:1-3)

    An Epistle of the Apostle Paul, included in the New Testament, contains an explicit reference to the Third Heaven. In a letter to the Corinthian church he writes, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) The Greek says "caught away", not "caught up" possibly reflecting Jewish beliefs that Paradise was somewhere other than the uppermost heaven.

    The apparent parallelism of the passage equates the Third Heaven with "Paradise" the traditional destination of redeemed humans and the general connotation of the term "Heaven" in mainstream Christianity.
    Four allusions to the Apocalypse of Moses occur in close proximity in 2 Corinthians. The allusions are (i) "Satan as an angel of light", (ii) the distinction of Satan and the serpent as two beings, (iii) "Third Heaven" (iv) "Paradise", The connection to this Jewish material has led to discussion about whether Paul accepted these traditions, or alternatively whether Paul's vision of Third Heaven is a continuation of his conflict with the Superapostles in the previous chapter, and that the material comes not from his own teaching, but in reply to material similar to Apocalypse of Moses being transmitted by the Superapostles to the Corinthians. Whether this is so partly depends on whether irony is detected in this section. The relationship of Paul of Tarsus and Judaism is still widely disputed.

  • sarahsmile
    sarahsmile

    I knew someone who said he saw Jesus Christ. I do not know if he was in the body or out of it only God knows! He said he was in heaven!

    Just because I tell a story that was told to me does not mean I believe the story.

    I know I believe the bible but Paul does not say this if from God it is just Paul! Part of his personality.

    Corinthians, Paul says it not from God but him! LOL.

    Like we should care if he speaks for himself!

    Really Paul I do not care what you think or say just what God says! If you had a vision tell us! Tell us everything GOD said! It makes most of his books a## wipe.

    Otherwise he just another what ever he wants to call himself! High ranking solider, tribe of wife rapist, murder to new Christians, most of all good second party story teller.

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