Data dog good point!
Paul belived paradise was heaven
by DS211 60 Replies latest watchtower bible
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zakharijah
Personnally, I believe Paul was talking about his conversion on the road to Damas and used Greek mythology to explain his point. (I do believe the spirit survives after death, I just don't think it is what Paul is talking about here)
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Perry
I experienced almost exactly what Paul experienced shortly after getting born again. My cousin sugggested that I pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so I did. A few days later, my spirit left my body and went to heaven and I gave supernatural testimony there on a stage behind a golden podium. I had the very uniqe experiece of actually being in two places at the same time.
At will, I could think with my physical mind in my bed or with my spirit mind in heaven. Yet, both were "me". This happened every night for nearly a week. I now have absolute proof that we do indeed possess a spirit/soul and at the same time we are a spirit/soul. Since that is true, it is totally proper to speak of having a spirit or soul and being a spirit or soul. The bible uses both types of phraseology.
Since I have experienced it for myself, there is no way anyone will ever be able to tell me that our spirit or soul doesn't survive the death of the body.
I had never read the scriptures that you cite above until sometime after this event. Apparently this kind of thing happens from time to time among Christians. Nothing like this has happened to me since, and that was around 8 years ago.
I thank God my soul is secure and hidden in the blood of Christ who died for me.
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designs
infomercial ......they're called-self induced auditory and visual hallucinations/hypnosis,
When I was a kid I would lay on my back and recreate the sensation of being in a ferris-wheel and have all the sensations of going over backwards, great fun.
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DS211
thanks guys! Yea at the meeting last night some answered this third heaven Paul went to was like a layer of peacefullness??? And the paradis was a spiritual paradise we would be experincing today??? Lol my eyes went squinty and my mouth kinda made a blowfish impression as i managed to fumble out "what the hell is she talking about?"
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AnnOMaly
Of interest is that the WTS associate 'paradise' with 'heaven':
Revelation Climax chap. 7 p. 36 par. 13 Rekindle That First Love!
“Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.” (Revelation 2:7) ...
... Since they have no prospect of living in an earthly paradise, how is it that anointed Christians, such as those Ephesians, are rewarded with eating “of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God”? This could not be the restored Paradise on earth, since the 144,000 anointed Christians, including those of the congregation at Ephesus, are bought from among mankind to rule with the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on the heavenly Mount Zion as spirit sons. (Ephesians 1:5-12; Revelation 14:1, 4) Hence, the reference here must be to the heavenly gardenlike realm inherited by these conquerors. There, “in the paradise of God,” yes, in the very presence of Jehovah himself, these overcomers who have been granted immortality will continue to live eternally, as symbolized here by their eating of the tree of life.
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prologos
designs: up to when I was half my age that I am now
I could hear whole symphony orchestras play favored classical passages. Cymbals, clarinets the works, in all glorious details. Pomp & Circumstance.
It was all in my mind.
Why would we take so seriously what was in other people's mind,
talking snakes, sin causing death, buy-back ransom, paradise on a "limited shelf life" earth, paradise in heaven? heaven for atheists?
beautiful music, MUSINGS.
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designs
prologos- What fascinates me about the Evangelicals and their experiences is they discount other religions experiences as either phony or demonized, take Catholics who see "Mary' as a prime example.
The mind can do amazing things, people who have experienced trauma can sometimes speak a foreign language. When my wife was in college she took a class from Carlos Castinada and under peyote experienced a out of body sensation, actually looking back on herself. LSD can also work.
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jhine
Designs , I think that it is a bit more complicated than that , you have to think about a new heaven and a new earth for the first ones will pass away . A new Jerusalem coming down from heaven and God dwelling with men (Rev 21 : 1-5 ) I think that a lot of Christians of all denominations feel that this means a new coming together of heaven and earth , a new arrangement where God will be with man .
As discussed on another thread the great multitude are shown to be in the place where God is , in front of the throne .
I am not sure that it can be said that there is one official teaching , especially in the Church of England , about these things . When someone dies , for sure we talk about them going to heaven as a place above , but that often is to give comfort to children involved in the loss .
Most churches , even the Catholic church ,are open to discussion on such matters , we are not so dogmatic as the Watchtower .
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designs
jhine- Yes it is more involved or convoluted. I had a discussion with professor Barry Hoffstetter years ago on the subject and his Presbyterian church's views. They felt heaven was the temporary home for believers and they would return to earth with Jesus at the Second Coming. When I mentioned I had just been to a funeral for a Presbyterian friend and the pastor described Doug as being in heaven fishing and camping he had to admit that is done for their Rank and File to give them comfort but the orthodox teaching is they don't stay forever in heaven, something to do with rejoining with their physical bodies and the New Jerusalem descending.