Paul belived paradise was heaven

by DS211 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Cold Steel

  DATA-DOG: If our consciousness survives death, then why can't [we] be just like the angels with their ability to create a body?

  I don't believe angels and people are different entities. When John confused the angel who was with him for Christ, he fell down before him. The angel told him, "See that thou do it not; for I am of thy fellowservants, the prophets." As a representative of Christ, the angel could speak Christ's words. This is called divine investiture of authority.

  Jeremiah was told by the Lord that he was known of the Lord, and ordained to be a prophet to the nations before he came to the earth. (See Jeremiah 1:5). And the disciples of the Lord asked him, "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was BORN blind?" Jesus did not correct them; he did not tell them they were weak in the faith or did not know the scriptures. (He could have told them that when they died, they slept, but he didn't do that.) Angels are, in my view, men who once lived on the earth or, in some cases, I imagine, people who have yet to be born. Jehovah, in fact, was later born into mortality as Jesus Christ, yet he spoke to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as Moses, face to face as a spirit. Now he's a resurrected personage of flesh and bone. He spent 40 days with the apostles following his resurrection and, immediately after his resurrection, even ate fish and let the apostles touch him to prove that he wasn't a spirit.

  The notion that spirits can materialize bodies comes from the myth that angels took on flesh and blood so they could mate with mortals. Its a sensationalistic story that in my vew has no basis in fact. It was a notion that was popular with Gnostics, but most scholars today believe the "sons of God" were people of the covenant and that the "daughters of men" were not. The author of 1 Enoch popularized the "angel" spin, but there's no indication in scripture that spirits can materialize bodies. If so, why would Jesus need to die to bring about the resurrection of all men, whether they be good or evil?
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  EndofMysteries

  cold steel - or perhaps angels materializing is merely stepping from the 4th or higher dimension to the 3rd dimension.
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  DS211

  Cold steel---heres what i dont get. We are meant to understand John 3:16 and how much God loved us--because he gave his only begotten so . Now i know i dont understand the full relationship between the Son and the Father but if jesus was God in human flesh, then he actually sacrificed himself, not his son. In that scripture and john 1:1 i notice (or speculate) that God loved him before Jesus was of flesh. Its tough for me to make sense of what im saying haha but
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  Cold Steel

  The relationship between the Father and Son doesn’t seem overly complicated to me, but there’s a great deal we don’t know. Why, for example, is the Father’s normal and natural state is in the form of a man? Why does the Almighty God have hands, feet, head, arms, and also, why does He wear clothing while all of His creations, besides man, live in the buff?

  I recently read an article by a Jewish scholar and I was intrigued by one of the things he said early on; and that was a given: God, he said, was an all encompassing spirit and was everywhere present. It is presently a popular notion, even among some Christians; however, it is never taught anywhere in the Bible or any of the apocryphal literature that’s related to it. In fact, it’s more of a far east religious concept that’s even foreign to the Greeks and Romans. Yet it’s found it’s way into the creeds of men.

  Instead, we have an anthropomorphic God. Jesus, we’re told, is in the “express image” of the Father.

  The scriptures teach that man has the potential of becoming like God through the heirship of Christ. Actually, we’ve got the potential to become as the resurrected Christ, and he is like the Father. But if Jesus was resurrected as a perfected physical being, and if he now is like the Father in every way, wouldn’t that indicate that both Father and Son would both be glorified physical beings animated by spirit?

  Paul wrote to the Romans: “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:16-17) And John notes our incredible potential when he wrote: “Now are we the sons of God,” and “we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” (1 John 3:2) And, finally, Paul goes so far as to call the elect the “offspring” (Greek genos, Acts 17:28-29), which indicates, literally, “descent” or “race.”). Thus, if we are the sons of God, literally, then this would explain why we look like God and vice versa. We are essentially of the same race.

  This is hard doctrine for most people, even though it’s staring them square in the face. It also would have been impossible had not Adam and Eve transgressed in the Garden. That’s why the concept of Jesus’ sacrifice simply returning man to the status of living in a garden is so foolish and, frankly, annoying. The Watchtower constantly running art where people are hiking, petting lions, playing musical instruments and having family get-togethers for eternity shows a startling lack of understanding of the Atonement and man’s incredible potential.
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  DS211

  That combined with the fact that paradise earth is mentioned nowhere in the scriptures. earthly paradise would be all fleshly and materialistic stuff....not spiritual.
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  Cold Steel

  If you're going to get converts, you have to either offer them an incredible future or scare them silly with prospects of a horrible destruction. I've never quite figured out what the JWs do to keep people active. I suspect ritual shunning is number one in why people stay. After that, I'm clueless. When it gets to the point you'd rather be destroyed at Armageddon than to attend one more meeting dissecting the latest Watchtower, even fear doesn't work.

  From what I've read, if I were a JW who was staying active simply to keep my family, I'd definitely get the word that I was of the anointed, heavenly class. I could at least survive if I could lose myself in the part. First comes the realization, followed by the rationalization, followed by the revelation to the elders, then making sure it discreetly made its way around the KH. Then comes the act, partaking of the emblems at the Memorial Service as if no one was watching but knowing everyone was watching. It would be the only way I could survive without slitting my wrists!

  What really gets me are the expectations of some of the leaders that people will have to work in Paradise Earth. They'll have to build their homes, plant their own crops. Yeah, I know there won't be any horrible heat or any weeds or noxious plants (except for poison ivy...God's got to leave one reminder not to screw up again). But still.

  
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  myelaine

  dear Cold Steel...

  you said, "

  What really gets me are the expectations of some of the leaders that people will have to work in Paradise Earth. They'll have to build their homes, plant their own crops. Yeah, I know there won't be any horrible heat or any weeds or noxious plants (except for poison ivy...God's got to leave one reminder not to screw up again). But still."...

  It's possible that the JW's and others get the idea that they will be planting and building from Isaiah 65:21-22...the consummation and planned purpose of God for His people.

  love michelle
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  Apognophos

  I've never quite figured out what the JWs do to keep people active. I suspect ritual shunning is number one in why people stay.

  In a word, nagging. If you miss meetings, you get asked where you were. If you miss enough, people start suspiciously avoiding you when you're at the meetings, long before any official shunning takes place due to a DFing.

  What really gets me are the expectations of some of the leaders that people will have to work in Paradise Earth. They'll have to build their homes, plant their own crops.

  Don't forget cleaning up the Earth! The Society has long indicated that JWs will be spending the Thousand Years cleaning up the god-awful mess made by humanity since the Industrial Age. I hope perfect people are immune to toxic waste....
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  myelaine

  The bible does say that the people will be gathering up weapons. I think that more than anything that activity will be a sober reminder of where we came from in contrast to where we "are".

  the earth is able to cleanse itself if given the chance. God is able to and indeed will bring this planet back from the mess we've made of it. I do think that many current resourses will still be used in the new earth but with a clear view as to better management because the motives to provide for people will not be based on money and profit.

  the men working tirelessly at the fukushima nuclear plant have more environmental conscience than a litterbug.

  love michelle
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  glenster

  Larry Hurtado's Blog

  "Heaven: It’s not what you may think!" re: Calvin R. Schoonhoven, "The Wrath of Heaven" (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1966) and comment section

  Schoonhoven’s argument is that in the NT references “heaven”, including the realm to which the righteous dead aspire and which is the seat of divine authority, is pictured as participating in the incompleteness and conflict that characterizes “this age”, and that “heaven” as well as the visible creation await the consummation of salvation that is emphatically linked to Christ and his triumphant “parousia”.

  The core of Schoonhoven’s case is that the NT view of salvation is thoroughly eschatological, linear, not a vertical flight to transcendence, but a forward move into “the age to come”. So, e.g., resurrection (not eternal life in “heaven”), redemption of the world (not flight from it), and a radical view of salvation in which Christ is central (not a lightly baptized pagan notion of the Elysian fields of bliss).

  ...the NT reflects a thoroughly eschatological outlook (not a Platonic one), and that “heaven” awaits redemption as does earth. Nothing to do with angelic sins! More to do with the sense of what “redemption” in/involves. E.g., for Paul the ultimate is “the redemption of your bodies” (Rom. 8:23, not simply the salvation of souls), and in Rev 21 there is a “new heaven and a new earth” (both experiencing the salvation in question).

  Schoonhoven’s main point was to contend that the NT outlook was thoroughly eschatological, and that “heaven” as well as earth awaited the completion of redemption. So, a rejection of a Platonic idea of a timeless ideal heaven vs. a timebound earth. Also, ultimate salvation as an awaited consummation that would include effects upon/for “heaven” too.

  http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/heaven-its-not-what-you-may-think/