Maybe he heard this:
Paul belived paradise was heaven
by DS211 60 Replies latest watchtower bible
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yadda yadda 2
Or even better, Eric Whitacre's amazing choir music:
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friendaroonie
Since ive been attending churches I have been shocmsd to find how many denominations belive life eternal in physical boxies right here on earth. Im not sure I agree it is a majority but it is very common. I dlnt know shy jws are golx they are the only ones that believe the paradkse earth thing. But my question is:is paradise a metaphor for heaven lr is heaven a metaphor for paradise?
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Cold Steel
DS211: Paul reveals a few things 1) he reveals that he seems to not know whether the spirit leaves the body (or that’s how it looks) but most importantly he 2) links paradise with heaven. Can anyone elaborate on this scripture for me?
Yes, Paradise is not Heaven. I also believe that Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, would speak of “supernatural visions and revelations” given him of the Lord and yet not know the state of the dead, nor anything of the heavens.
But what is Paradise? Is it Heaven, the place where the Lord’s elect will spend eternity or is it something else? The Bible is unclear; however, many apocryphal writings dating to antiquity, as will those writings by early church fathers.
Origen, for example, viewed both Paradise and Heavenly quite differently, stipulating that the former was a holding place where we await the judgment and learn about our lives on Earth.
“After death,” Origen explains, “I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.” Origin also believed that Heaven was not merely one place, but a place with varying degrees of power, or glory.
One scholar observes:
In Origen’s universe there are more exalted beings who leave the less exalted beings further and further behind. He compares their advancements to a series of examinations and makes much of the three degrees of glory—“three celestial levels, like the sun, the moon, and the stars.” According to him, the visible world is only a small fraction of the invisible world, which in turn is only a small fraction of the potential world that is to become reality in the aeons ahead. (Hugh Nibley, “Unrolling the Scrolls,” 1967; also published as “Treasures in the Heavens.” Source)
Many of the near death experiences written today reflect Origen’s view on what constitutes Paradise. It also accurately reflects the scripture where Jesus promises the thief on the cross that on that day, he, Jesus, would be in Paradise with the thief. It is neither a place of eternal abode nor is it a place of torture, but is a place of judgment and learning prior to the resurrection.
Note: It's becoming apparent from more and more records becoming enearthed that the ancient Christians not only believed in life after death, but that man had a premortal life, where he existed for aeons as sons and daughters of God the Father (El, Elyon) and Jesus Christ (Jehovah). See article for more info!
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Rattigan350
Why does it matter what Paul said?
He was not a prophet. He was a Jewish historian.
That is what turned me off to religion. It is all about, Paul said, Peter said, James, John, Jesus, etc.
They said something 2 thousand years ago. now what?
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DS211
cold Steel--cool idea. id like to do that.
Rattigan---i understand how you feel. See when Paul and Peter wrote these letters and what not, and said things like "all scripture is inspired of God" they werent referring to THeIR letters and gch to the congregations....because they werent added to the Bible until later.
Personally guys (and girls) i am just focusing on things Christ taught...and i take the positives like being LOVING to all people, charitable, self controlled, learnin to apply knowledge and do it with the benefit of others in mind. Im under no authority nor do i wish to judge others or tell them they are wrong, especially when speculation is in swing. We as humans that believe in God and Christ speculate about the future. It gives excitement, hope, and sparks the imagination. For me to continue to ficus on the good things gives me a glimpse of what we are cap ble of.
I have faith in Christ and God and i have this without mnowing what exactly the future holds. But i trust that if i am a good person at heart then good things will happen. All the other prophetic, revelation--atory (:-D new word for the Jw dictionary) stuff is speculation at best until such an event actually occurs.
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OnTheWayOut
Go back and read Perry's thoughts.
A guy writes some stuff about his mystical beliefs.
A whole religion is created mostly based on what he writes.Later, when examined with a fine-tooth comb, others take his writings and apply new meanings to it so that they seem to have an answer for everything that might come up.
People have had spiritual experiences with Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, Odin, Jupitor, a host of others.
If Paul really had this experience, he said "I do not know" but apparently others know.
Designs called it right: .....they're called-self induced auditory and visual hallucinations/hypnosis,
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DATA-DOG
The truth is that we don't really KNOW much. If you really believe what the bible says, then there are many gray areas. Think about it, God did not even preserve the pronunciation of his name? Why not? It's not really important. Who are the 24 Elders of Revelation? They are not the 144,000, that much is clear from a simple reading. There are so many examples of unknowns.
The Jews believed that the restoration of all things would occur. What is that? Is Christ coming back physically to the Earth? Why couldn't he? Is heaven another dimension existing simultaneously with ours? If our consciousness survives death, then why can't be just like the angels with their ability to create a body? We could go to heaven, and have the ability to travel to and from heaven and Earth. Or New Jerusalem could literally come down out of the heavens and land on Earth. We don't know. Anyone raised a Jw only knows their particular brand of eschatology. The WTBTS has no interests in changing horses in mid-stream, as it's adventist spin-off brand is working quite well.
There are certain thing that are specifically commented on in the scriptures, and then there are gray areas. I personally believe that it is our job to distinguish between the two, and to not be judgemental, forcing others to believe our brand. After all, if having all the answers was a salvation issue, then surely YHWH would have provided them. As things stand now, there is enough rope provided in the scriptures for false teachers to hang themselves. That may be intentional.
Peace,
DD
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Cold Steel
Rattigan350: Why does it matter what Paul said? He was not a prophet. He was a Jewish historian. That is what turned me off to religion. It is all about, Paul said, Peter said, James, John, Jesus, etc. They said something 2 thousand years ago. now what?
Critics of religion almost always state their opinions as absolute facts and I’ve never quite understood that. According to Christian dogma, Paul was indeed a prophet because he was an apostle, and all of the apostles were prophets. And the primary roles of prophets were to prophesy of Christ. He was converted because of an open vision and Jesus had spoken Paul’s name and had directed him to the local leaders of the day. The vision itself did not make him a prophet, or an apostle, for he had a great deal to learn; however, his conversion greatly unnerved both the Christians and their critics at the time, but Paul’s value to the cause was that as a radical Jew bent upon the destruction of the Christian faith; he was a witness of Christ’s resurrection and eventually gave his life for the cause.
Like anyone, Paul had certain predilections that raised eyebrows, but he was an apostle, a prophet, a theologian and a missionary of the church. His writings are invaluable to Christians living in all dispensations.
Friendaroonie: ...my question is: is paradise a metaphor for heaven lr is heaven a metaphor for paradise?
Paradise is simply a holding area for spirits. It’s a place where you review your life time and time again, learning from your successes and mistakes. You learn how you bolstered people and hurt them and review your decisions in life and the effects those decisions had on you and others. People who have had near death experiences have had what they call “life reviews.” Based upon your progress, you are judged and resurrected to a certain glory. Paradise, however, is primarily for decent, honorable people. It’s counterpart, Hell, does essentially the same thing, but is far less pleasant. Imagine someone like Hitler, Stalin, or Mao having countless reviews of their lives and experiencing the pain and agony they inflicted on others. By the time they’re finished, they’ll know their names, histories and lives as well as they do their own. That’s why Hell, though excruciating, is still remedial. Ultimately, it burns the evil out of people. It doesn’t mean they come forth in the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just; they will eventually be resurrected as well, but to a much lower glory. The notion that the righteous will simply be restored to a Paradise Earth is one of the more absurd doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Man had to fall, then be redeemed through the shedding of righteous blood, to become the glorious beings that Adam and Eve never could have attained on their own.
Eastern Orthodox scholar Mark Shuttleworth put it like this:
Add all these other motifs—sonship, being fellow heirs, union, being made like Christ, partaking of the divine nature—and we see that these describe the divine image, broken and marred (but not altogether lost) through Adam’s fall, being remade in us through Christ’s redeeming work, so that we become like God. Thus in Genesis we are created in God’s image; through Christ we are given the opportunity to acquire God’s likeness. In Ephesians 4:23–24 this very idea is reinforced: “be renewed in the spirit of your mind” and “put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.” And in 5:1 we are enjoined to be “imitators of God.” Source
In other words, the atonement was not intended to restore man to the glory of Adam and Eve, but to the glory of God the Father. (Besides, can you conceive of spending trillions and trillions of years in a garden Paradise?)
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EndofMysteries
I forgot if it was scriptures or other books not of the canon that talk about Adam and Eve were cast out of the land BELOW eden. I do know in the book of enoch or secrets of enoch, paradise is like the 3rd heaven.