Paul belived paradise was heaven

by DS211 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  AnnOMaly

  DATA-DOG

  There's a knottier problem with the WTS's views of the soul. It results in two sets of humans being endowed with two different natures. The 'anointed' have an immaterial something ('soul' = 'person') that can be transferred to a non-physical body, whereas everyone else only becomes a 'living soul' again when they are resurrected as breathing, physical beings (breath of life + physical body = living soul).

  Insight Vol. 2 pp. 1005-1006 Soul

  As stated, man “came to be a living soul”; hence man was a soul, he did not have a soul as something immaterial, invisible, and intangible residing inside him. The apostle Paul shows that the Christian teaching did not differ from the earlier Hebrew teaching, for he quotes Genesis 2:7 in saying: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul [psy·khen′ zo′san].’ . . . The first man is out of the earth and made of dust.”—1Co 15:45-47.

  The Genesis account shows that a living soul results from the combination of the earthly body with the breath of life.

  Insight Vol. 2 p. 786 Resurrection

  [Christ's "brothers"] must undergo a change of nature, giving up human nature to obtain “divine” nature, thus sharing with Christ in his glory. They must die a death like Christ’s—maintaining integrity and giving up human life forever—and then they receive immortal, incorruptible bodies like Christ’s by a resurrection. (Ro 6:3-5; 1Co 15:50-57; 2Co 5:1-3) The apostle Paul explains that it is not the body that is resurrected, but rather, he likens their experience to the planting and sprouting of a seed, in that “God gives it a body just as it has pleased him.” (1Co 15:35-40) It is the soul, the person, that is resurrected, with a body to suit the environment into which God resurrects him.

  P. 790

  Throughout the Scriptures it is evident that there is no “immaterial soul” separate and distinct from the body.The soul dies when the body dies. ... Consequently, in the resurrection there is no joining again of soul and body. However, whether spiritual or earthly, the individual must have a body or organism, for all persons, heavenly or earthly, possess bodies. To be again a person, one who has died would have to have a body, either a physical or a spiritual body. The Bible says: “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.”—1Co 15:44.
• 

  DS211

  prologos--i agree...i hae this debate with many who out SO MUCH emphasis on revelation. It was a hell of a vision dont get me wrong and showed us glimpses of future events perhaps...but knkwing what might or might not happen isnt a salvation issue..the watchtower utilizes revelation to condemn whom they wish...

  Jhine--my thing is, if all that will happen is New Jerusalem, heaven comes down and meets the earth we now inhabit...and we are meant to stay here forever, what about the rest of the vast universe? Its an awful waste of space IMO If Gid has no intention of utilizing it. Why cant third heaven mean different galaxies? Why cant the scripture "and there will be new heavens and a new earth" mean a planet with a different sun or planetary system? Althoug given how well we as humans govern ourselves its no wonder he wouldnt just let us go galavanting throughout the universe breaking more stuff. Its all just speculation but thr point. Is none of us have it all figured out, hence why the scriptures say that that we cant imagine thr blessings in store for us.

  Sorry to any atheists reading my thread, you must be dreadfully bored with reading it lol
• 

  designs

  DS211- Even atheists are interested in the topic as it affects so much of our culture (and why and which things get attention or neglected). That christianity is undecided says volumes. The human imagination takes over and you have whatever fanciful thing comes to mind.

  Personally I'm pulling for the guy who sees Jesus face in the burnt tortilla
• 

  DS211

  Data dog--let me start by saying that i really enjoy your posts. Ive been lurking for some time and have enjoyed them. Ok enough ass kissing. I agree we dontknoc exactly what itd be like, a spiritual body. Either way the soul or breath of life would logically have to have a vessel (body) in order to engage in functio ad interact with the physical environment. Whether or not people believ in heavenly hope ir earthly its still a physical environment of sorts in which we would need physical bodies For interaction. Unless im missing more dimensions to the space time continuum (lol) that is t physical
• 

  jhine

  DS211 , I agree that this is not a salvation issue , so that is why there is not really any formal teaching in most Trinitarian churches that has to be believed or your out !

  When I talked about the Rev verses I used them to illustrate that the matter is not so straight forward (maybe ) If heaven and earth are to be done away with then we can only guess at the new arrangement where the new Jerusalem is among men . Perhaps the universe as we know it (Jim ) will disappear and something else will come in its place . As limited humans we can only imagine, to some extent ,according to our knowledge now . You let your imagination run riot and think what you would see as a new combined heaven and earth .

  yes , sorry to atheists , but you could have fun imagining what heaven (if it exists ) would be like for you .
• 

  DS211

  designs--i like tortillas.
• 

  DS211

  Jhine--spot on. In WT speculatuon becomes indoctrination. For instance, where does it say the great crowd of revelation will have to live with billions if dead bodies till the birds eat em up, clean and rebuild the world, teach newly resurrected ones, and grow ourselves to spiritual perfection in 1,000 years? I had a frient tell me how quickly the earthcan cleanse itself after something destructive has happened And that we arent going to do all those things at once but in sequences. more speculation turned indoctrination. Tell people stuff for 30-40 years and if theyre gullie enough theyll believe it. I believed it for 2 years..)!then i remembered that i had a brain tha was functional...and started to use it again.
• 

  Band on the Run

  I once read academic commentary about this. The problem is that it was many years ago. One would need to know both Jewish and Greek Jewish thought about paradise, heaven, and degrees of heaven during Paul's time. We can't just read it today and assume our current terms apply.

  I believe I may still have the commentary. Perhaps I will look later to refresh my memory. From college and postgrad courses, Paul's visions of ressurection is Jewish which would mean bodily on earth. It is a controversial area. Paul is also boasting about a spiritual vision. Mystics throughout the ages are stumped when they transfer a wordless experience in to limiting words. They grope with words.

  There is prob. a range of opinions about this scripture.
• 

  Trevor Scott

  "Paradise" is used only three times in the New Testament - 2 Cor 12:4; Rev 2:7; Lk 23:43 - and it's pretty clearly a reference to heaven in all cases.
  
  Of these verses, Luke 23:43 presents the biggest problem for the WTS:
  
  Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
  
  Despite all instances of "paradise" in the NT clearly implying heaven, the WT says this "paradise" is a FUTURE TIME ON EARTH. That being the case, how could the evildoer be there "today"?

  But then, when has the GB ever allowed a little thing like the bible to get in the way of a good doctrine.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  " In WT speculatuon becomes indoctrination. "

  EXACTLY!! Except YOUR speculation is prideful, but the GB/FDS's speculation is nu-light that must be accepted without hesitation.

  AnnOMaly,

  You said, " There's a knottier problem with the WTS's views of the soul. It results in two sets of humans being endowed with two different natures. The 'anointed' have an immaterial something ('soul' = 'person') that can be transferred to a non-physical body, whereas everyone else only becomes a 'living soul' again when they are resurrected as breathing, physical beings (breath of life + physical body = living soul)"

  This reminds me of how the JW rank and file view the GB vs the non-GB "anointed." Only the GB can interpret doctrine according to one of my Elders who was discussing the nu-light WT article. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide his disciples to truth. So....if the Bible is written primarily for the " anointed ", then that must apply to modern day partakers, right? So the channel is God's word and the Holy Spirit. Evidently, this is how the GB/FDS learns "truth." So how can there be 2 classes of anointed true Christians, one who the Holy Spirit leads to truth, and one who cannot understand or interpret the scriptures? Ask a R&F if they think the GB have more Holy Spirit than the other members of the remnant? Wait a few seconds.... They will probably say, " That's the channel." If you asked why, they would usually say, " Because Jesus apointed them over all his belongings." Now they can't say that anymore. They will probably say that, " The GB/FDS/Organization has taught us the truth." Fair enough. So correctly interpreting scripture now becomes the identifying mark of a GB/FDS vs a non-GB partaker?! How does that stand up to an unbiased examination?

  I guess the R&F believe that the Holy Spirit reall doesn't do anything for them. They certainly don't believe that they can understand God's word with the help of the Holy Spirit. The WTBTS has created a tangle conundrum of inconsistent teachings that boggle the mind. They conveniently label these as things which are " hard to understand" or " deep things of God." The are all too happy to interpret them for you.