Does This Make Me A Racist?

by Englishman 77 Replies latest jw friends

LDH

Eman,
Your intelligence shines through loud and clear.By no means should you consider yourself a racist.
and I am LOL at Her Ladyship's statement.
Lisa
Nemesis

Hello Abaddon,
I believe it is this attitude in the absorbing culture which can increase the time it takes for integration, as if the absorbing culture doesn't actually regard all people as equal, then the integrating culture will be alienated. Of course, in such a situation, even though it's the absorbing cultures 'fault', it is the integrating culture that gets the blame.
Also, if the absorbing culture can choose what aspects of other cultures it can adopt (wine with meals, spaghetti, pizza, curry, whatever), what the hell is wrong with the integrating culture choosing what aspects of the absorbing culture it adopts? Do you expect 60 year-old illiterate Bengali women to learn English, read the sun, watch Eastenders and eat fish and chips? What about freedom of choice? Does that apply only if you're in the absorbing culture?
Point one, I do blame the immigrants for not integrating, they have massive resources and help here. I don’t know how long you have been out of the UK, but you need to take a closer look. As for eating British food, or watching crap like Eastenders, that is totally irrelevant. You have missed the point of what I was saying. I’m in favour of free choice, they keep all they want and need from their culture. But what they do need to do is learn about the country they live in and have some respect for it—learn its basic history, culture, and get to know the native people. Don’t expect the natives to show an interest in their culture and then hypocritically reject all things native as worthless, or expect the natives to pay for your festival and then complain when a native wants their festival in their native country, and call them racist, or nationalistic!
As for “equal” depends what you mean. As a human, yes. As deserving all the inheritance of the English have worked for over the past 1,600 years, No. Would the new canteen worker be due the same pay as the 50 years faithful managing director who built the company from scratch with blood, sweat, and hard work? No! Ethnic monitory groups have massive help far more than white natives ever get; they have absolutely no excuse at all for not making the effort to use these resources.
Also, third, fourth etc. generations become increasingly integrated... bigotry diminishes, they are more accepted, and as they are more accepted they can integrate more without losing their identity. And they are entitled to their cultural identity . . . then why is it wrong for Hindus to celebrate Devali, for Muslim girls to wear trousers instead of skirts, or to go to Bollywood movies? What's wrong with being a Rasta?
I disagree Abaddon, the biggest problems we have with certain groups are not the first generation, but the last. West-Indian immigrants we invited over in the 50s to offer them employment as we lost so many young men in the war are not the problem. It’s their children, and grandchildren who are causing the massive upsurge in crime in the UK, especially in London. Aged first generation Muslim Pakistanis are not the cause of problems either (except the financial cost), it’s their future generations who many turn into white hating racists (Bradford riots being a perfect example). The opposite of integration is happening, the last generation are the cause of so many problems and crime, not the first generation.
As for “entitled to their cultural identity” of course they are! AND SO AM I! and that’s the problem, just the hint of mentioning ‘English’ is almost a swear word, left wing bigots with endless rhetoric expect the natives to absorb and celebrate all things ‘ethnic’ and if we reverse that, and ask immigrants and their descendants to do the same we get called racist! They don’t want to “contaminate” their culture with anything English, or British, but we are suppose to trash our rich heritage and take on theirs in a “multicultural Britain”. I despise this racially biased hypocrisy! I have many friends, and work colleagues from many cultures, and I take and interest in their culture, but take great offence when I’m told by some white hating left wing black, or Pakistani group etc., that I’m not allowed to celebrate my English heritage, history, and culture because that might offend some ‘ethnic’ minority!
As for the carnival, there is no evidence that they generate anywhere near £4,000,000 over two days. Not to mention the sting of hundreds of thousands of pounds that Kensington and Chelsea’s council tax payers have to fork our for the cleanup bill. By the way, that £4,000,000 was just for the policing! Why? Because of a predictable handful of blacks youth causing robberies, stabbings, and murders.
I'd also like to see your comments on the social justice of attracting cheap workers from ex-colonies to settle in the UK, and then acting like them and their children are in the same group as political refugees when the work climate changes
The reason we invited Jamaicans, and West-Indians here after the war was not for “cheap labour” but because we had a labour shortage as we lost so many of our young men in WWII. I don’t put them in the same category as asylum seekers, or their descendants. Their descendants are one of the UK’s and London’s biggest problems. As for Muslim Bangladeshis, when did we invite them? They arrived en mass in the late 70s, and early 80s. As for Hindu Indians, I put them in a completely different category, they are not like the Pakistani Muslims, or the Bangladeshi Muslims, and all the Indians I know hate being lumped in the same catch all category of “Asians*”. Indians tend to get off their arse and have respect for education that they inherited from British rule in India. They are a world apart from what are now Muslim Bangladeshis, and Pakistanis.
* For non-British, the UK term ‘Asian’ is very different from the US usage, it’s almost exclusively used for just Indians, Bangladeshis, and Pakistanis. Occasionally they use ‘North West Asians’, the term normally used for East Asians, is ‘Oriental’. Don’t ask me why the extremely narrow usage came about, I don't agree with it, as people from all differing countries in Asian are a world apart.
Frequently people make statements about immigrants not contributing. In the short-term, yes, maybe this is true . . . Do people seriously think an immigrant will say "No, I'll sit here with my thumb up my arse" if he's treated like an equal, has equal opportunities, and doesn't have to read malinformed opinions in the press about how people like him are a menece to Society?
But how long is short term? Bangladeshis have been net dependants ever since they got here! They cost the economy billions each year in benefits, housing, healthcare and welfare etc. as do second and third generation, Pakistanis, and West-Indians. As for equal opportunities, that is a joke if you see how many groups, housing associations [for just blacks, Bangladeshis etc.], free college courses, healthcare, counselling, and all the others organisations that are there are to help them. Far, far more than any white native ever gets. Did you know out of London’s hundreds of housing associations, there is not one single one for native whites, but there are dozens exclusively for non-whites! As for “menace to society”, you need to look at the crime figures, blacks are number one for violent street robbery, murder, gun crime, race hate attacks, and the Muslim youths are a close second. On just race hate attacks 165,000 (65%) in the year 2000 were committed by non-white ethnic minorities against whites! That's less than 5% of the UK's population causing 65% of all race hate attacks. When broken down to race it gets worse as for every 1 white racist in the white population there are 45 black racists in the black population! 4,500% more racist in the black community is no joke. Muggings, robberies, and murders are also on a massively disproportionately level commited by blacks above what they are for whites regardless of the socio-economic level.
I can honestly say that it is unrealistic to expect your 60-year-old Bengali, Bangladeshi, Gujerati or indeed Martian woman to just up and learn English given the level of goverment support
That is totally untrue Abaddon, they get massive help. There are over 100 colleges that give free English courses to all non-native speakers just in London. There is massive funding for them to get on with life here. They have mountains of literature translated in their own languages, and countless organisations that help them become literate, and integrate. I will tell you what is one of the problems, besides needing to get off their arse, it’s their Muslim husbands who dislike their wives getting an education. They won’t let them go and do a college course, and make pals, learn a skill, or just make friends on some hobby course (there are literally thousands of courses that they can get for free.) And you know what happens when “white” people try and help the women in these situations? we get called racist! Why? For interfering with “their customs and religion”, if we sit back and leave them to it we get called racist for not helping—catch 22! Meanwhile we pay out billions to keep them in benefits, housing, and free healthcare and all the other advantages they get with the privileges of living in England. Do we ever get any thanks for being the most generous country on earth? NO. We just get labelled racist or any other ad-hominem for just speaking the truth, or even wanting to discuss the problems!
jwsons

I just wonder why the foreigners can get along well in most
Scandinavian countries, Canada , some European countires (like Greek, Spain..) and South America but not in Germany (neo-Nazism ?)UK and Australia (recently when a boat was rejected by Australian, New Zealander happy to accept them all !). The problem maybe in the heart: You should follow us instead of a so-call "melting-pot"
Englishman went to China for a research course in 3 yrs.
He always avoid to go to the Club at the corner of Tiamen
Square, where all English-speaking reporters used to be there
and avoids to speak English even though he surrounded by
English and English-speaking friends !!!! (afraid to be called 'ghetto', then reject one of the human right!)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=26245&site=3
After those 3 years, Englishman decides to stay there
because he can see the hospitality of Chinese people. He
applied for a citizenship but he couldn't understand well
Chinese writting. Luckily, the offical is a Hongkong Chinese,
can speak his English and kindly help him to use the interpreter
service availlable to fill the form (all E.T. characters!).
Englishman thought this Chinese man should shout "YES, YES you
should know 'our easy language' before you can be our citizen" (in reality, it's only easy
for people with the similar culture like Japanese or
Korean). Even if the INS official did shout to him,
he can only smile and answer in Chinese:
"Me no Mendaring spoking" eventhough there are
100 free Chinese-courses availlable(HeHeHe???).
Today, after 10 yrs in China, Englishman still can not write Chinese
but he did enjoy love and kindness from the true good neighbours.
His wife is the black-hair Chinese girl with red-Hawaiian-dress who's
dancing on the left picture. His wife doesn't believe any barriers
can stop they love each other as human being. She studied English
for she knows he has difficulties with WacoTowerism. They are now
living in happiness with a little boy can speak two languages.
However, Englishman' sister-in-law (the blue-Hawaiian-dress dancer
on the right) can not understand why Englishman could ever believe
in a couple of decades about a Paradise, where Eve tried to repeat
"Flu-wer" after Adam when she first saw the tulips field in Holland !
Englishman now feels fully happy and he even can sing-a-long with Mr.
Bing Lee(an owner of a couple of electrical shops in China) "I like
Chinese ...foods" that 2UE radio plays every morning, while Englishman
enjoying Yum-Cha,looking his wife and his sister-in-law dance. He also thinking about the comments in the Kingdom Hall he attended before "That brother/sister is a new baptizer anyhow" with a smile.
Abaddon

Englishman; "My point is simply how can you become integrated into a country if you wont speak the language?"
LDH has already responded much in the way I would have.
Nemesis; interesting debate, thank you! Please understand, I might get a little excieted, but I am not accusing you of being a racist (or Englishman), just discussing your viewpoints in comparison to mine.
Point one, I do blame the immigrants for not integrating, they have massive resources and help here.
Sorry Nemesis, I don't think all immigrants do have 'massive resources and help'. The West Indian immigrants of the '50's and '60's basically got off a boat. They were wanted, to drive buses et. al., but actually helping them integrate? Nah, didn't happen mate. Read up on the 'Windrush'. You seem to group people according to convenience; on one hand you say ;
The reason we invited Jamaicans, and West-Indians here after the war was not for “cheap labour” but because we had a labour shortage as we lost so many of our young men in WWII. I don’t put them in the same category as asylum seekers, or their descendants.
... yet you pair those decendant 'blacks' together with other groups like 'Muslim youths' when discussing crime. Oh, and, yes, there was a labour shortage... but there was no equal wage act yet, and businessmen being businessmen did often pay black people less. Likewise, Ugandan Pakistanis are a pretty financially dynamic group as a whole, given Idi stole everything they had, but were assylum seekers.
I think trying to group immigrant groups purely by origin or classification as 'assylum seeker', 'migrant worker', or 'ecomomic migrant' is difficult and possibly futile. This is why I keep on going on about integration, as you can very easily guage the level of integration with the host society by analysing statistics relating to the immigrants and comparing them to a 'norm' for the culture as a whole.
Many groups of immigrants received no real help to integrate, and they are the largest groups. Groups such as those resulting from the ethnic troubles in the former Yugoslavia did receive greater support, but they are smaller in number than the groups most frequently characterised as 'immigrants'. The help and support they received is not retrospectively available to older groups that, due to the absorbing culture's laxidasical (sp?) nature were allowed to become alienated. Your comments regarding secxual repression at the end of your post are very perceptive (and your comments regarding differentiation of the Asian community and different ANglo vs. American linguistic usage of Asian) are quite correct BUT ARE THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT, as they allowed the situation to carry on; in Holland there is no comparable problem in the Morrocan commuinity, which is comparable, as it wasn't allowed to develop.
But what they do need to do is learn about the country they live in and have some respect for it—learn its basic history, culture, and get to know the native people.
Where do these lessons take place? In Holland, immigrants do get them, and I imagine that lessons of this nature will become common in England in the future. But is it now the fault of immigrants of the seventies and earlier, that they were just left to integrate without any effort being applied to helping them integrate? Is it the fault of the immigrant children that there is no equivalent of 'citizenship' classes, like they have in, say, the US, to allow them to be integrated or at least knowledgable of their host culture? They have them in every school in the US.
Of course, the fate as regards integration does depend greatly on the educational level of the inital immigrants; some immigrants can manage the process without government help. But for a Westerner to assume it's an easy process, 'cause it would be for them, is silly, as not all immigrants have the same abilities due to their background. Add in difference generated by religion and how this is amplified in uneducated groups, and wey-hey, of course, it's the religiously devout uneducated immigrant with social taboos that would make Victorians feel restricted who is at fault! You recognise the problem, but we seem to find different causes for the problem!
Don’t expect the natives to show an interest in their culture and then hypocritically reject all things native as worthless, or expect the natives to pay for your festival and then complain when a native wants their festival in their native country, and call them racist, or nationalistic!
I'm sorry, I don't understand this paragraph; please restate.
As for “equal” depends what you mean. As a human, yes. As deserving all the inheritance of the English have worked for over the past 1,600 years,
Oh, PLEASE! English and 1,600 years? The English haven't even existed for 1,600 years. We are a bunch of &ucking mongerels. Picts, Celts, Angles, Jutelanders, Saxons, Danes, Jews, Norwegians, Normans (French speaking Vikings)... our Queen has more German blood in her than English blood! We borrowed a King of the Dutch! Please don't give me a lecture about nationhood unless you realise that one of the distinguishing characteristics of English nationhood is the way it is made up of succesive waves of invaders. It took hundreds of years for some of those cultural groups to integrate! Now people have to integrate after a half hour chat about the Royal Family and a few weeks of English lessons at the local Poly! Even our language is a mongrel; sledgehammer is a Norse word and a Saxon word that means the same thing put together! Bungalow, bangalore, curry, jodphurs, polo, juggernaught, bandoblast; all words from the Indian sub-continent. Yacht and bouy are Dutch words; the rest of our language is the bastard child of a marriage between German and French, with seasoning of Latin and Greek. We are a nation of bastards, and we should be proud of it, not pretend it's a closed club now.
No. Would the new canteen worker be due the same pay as the 50 years faithful managing director who built the company from scratch with blood, sweat, and hard work? No! Ethnic monitory groups have massive help far more than white natives ever get; they have absolutely no excuse at all for not making the effort to use these resources.
Again, please provide PROOF of the alleged disparity you are, again, claiming; i believe that I and others have already addressed the fact it's unrealistic to use phrases like "not making the effort to use these resources" when talking about people at a large educational and cultural remove.
With regards to me saying third generations onward do integrate more you replied;
I disagree Abaddon, the biggest problems we have with certain groups are not the first generation, but the last. West-Indian immigrants we invited over in the 50s to offer them employment as we lost so many young men in the war are not the problem.
They're (the 1st generation) are not properly integrated man, they're just QUIET about their discontent.
It’s their children, and grandchildren who are causing the massive upsurge in crime in the UK, especially in London.
Why?
*in an Ali-G voice*
Is you saying black peoples robs more?
*joke*
And why do you think that is? Do you seriously believe that they rob out of choice (real choice) in any greater a quantity than white kids? Well, you can, but I don't! Having known young black criminals, I know that if they can 'better' themselves, they do. STOP LOOKING AT THEIR COLOUR. Look at statistics, look at educational levels of them and their parents. Look at average levels of income. Look at the wealth of the families. Look at employment.
You'll see people turn to crime as a result of these factors, regardless of colour.
It's not their COLOUR or their CULTURE causing the problem, it's deprevation which is due to lack of integration, which in the example of Afro-Carribians, is the UK's fault. Go back to my example of how Germany is at least more honest with regards to migrant workers.
Oh, and remember, that in the past thirty years repatriation has gone from almost a main political party policy (if the public reaction to Enoch Powells infamous 'rivers of blood' speech had been favourable, it would have been policy), to that of a party which still achieves success. Think how &ucking integrated you'd feel if people voted in people who wanted you GONE.
Oh, and look at the comparative level of integration of Greek and Italian (or other white European immigrants) people into British culture after a few generations, or how integrated most Jewish families are into British culture. It take YEARS for the process to complete, thus me saying '3rd gen on'.
Aged first generation Muslim Pakistanis are not the cause of problems either (except the financial cost),
Do you close your eyes every time you are in a cornershop? Or a hospital? PLEASE start giving proof that people such as those you keep on alleging are actually more of a burden than white people on average.
it’s their future generations who many turn into white hating racists (Bradford riots being a perfect example).
Please listen to a member of the British National Party for five minutes before you make 'white hating racists' sound like such a threat to society. Did they jump out of bed and say "Goodness gracious me Prakash, I am feeling like rioting today, as I am being of the opinion that white people are bad". Have you, Nemesis, ever been racially abused?
Oh, and Jamil Mayet, Teher Teyeb and Jagdeshua Sucool (all of whom are second gen, and a Consultant, a Pharamasist and a Dentist respectively, and all of whom I went to school with) spoil your stereotype, as do many others. Clue...'Bradford'... 'deprevation'...
... and you obviously didn't know that the riots were triggered by white youths (or at least in the version I read they were).
The opposite of integration is happening, the last generation are the cause of so many problems and crime, not the first generation.
No. No. No. No. Just so you are clear on what I think...
It is GOVERNMENT that is the cause of the problem... the rioting has everything to do with deprevation and racism, but are you really gonna convince me if the rioters had an equal crack of the whip they'd be rioting? That's like saying they're different due to their race!
As for “entitled to their cultural identity” of course they are! AND SO AM I! and that’s the problem, just the hint of mentioning ‘English’ is almost a swear word, left wing bigots with endless rhetoric expect the natives to absorb and celebrate all things ‘ethnic’ and if we reverse that, and ask immigrants and their descendants to do the same we get called racist!
Ah, so, the fact that some people on the other side of the debate are not reasonable means that the other side of the arguement has no merits? I argue (and I've not seen any evidence to the contrary) that lack of integration is chiefly the problem of the host culture, and that given the opportunity, immigrants will integrate willingly, whilst retaining their cultural uniqueness (!), if helped to integrate by the host culture,m rather than being alienated by them.
They don’t want to “contaminate” their culture with anything English, or British, but we are suppose to trash our rich heritage and take on theirs in a “multicultural Britain”.
You may not LIKE it, but cultures change. British culture is a result of invasion and absorbtion. This is what history tells us. Why should it stop now? And statements like "we are suppose to trash our rich heritage and take on theirs in a “multicultural Britain”" sound like leaders in the Daily Mail... it's hyperbole, no one is expecting you to trash your culture, just not get bent out of shape if someone on the bus smells different due to the fact they have a spicey diet, or that they wear a turban all the time due to their religion, or asks if they can work Christmas and have Devali off?
I despise this racially biased hypocrisy! I have many friends, and work colleagues from many cultures, and I take and interest in their culture, but take great offence when I’m told by some white hating left wing black, or Pakistani group etc., that I’m not allowed to celebrate my English heritage, history, and culture because that might offend some ‘ethnic’ minority!
IT'S INTEGRATION. Here in Holland, jokes which characterise people in a humourous fashion according to their race or culture, are quite acceptable. Dutch people OF ALL RACES simply don't have the sensitive spots people in the UK or USA have, as they feel integrated. They don't assume 'ah, racism', as there is a precharge of knowledge, only available when someone is integrated, that it's observational humour, not a racial slur. For similar reasons, bunches of Dutch nutters celebrating Carnival, or Queens Day, or Sinter Clas, do not provoke anxitity amongst immigrants as they are integrated.
It ain't perfect; there are Dutch racists, and there are levels of disaffection amongst certain immigrant groups (THE DEPRIVED ONES, Doh!). But do you think that in England it would be acceptable for white men to 'black up' and play the part of Black Peter, Sinter Clas' assitant, handing out presents to children?
The only reason that is possible is the Dutch have done well at integrating immigrants; it's not because the immigrants to Holland are easier going than those to England.
As for the carnival, there is no evidence that they generate anywhere near £4,000,000 over two days. Not to mention the sting of hundreds of thousands of pounds that Kensington and Chelsea’s council tax payers have to fork our for the cleanup bill. By the way, that £4,000,000 was just for the policing! Why? Because of a predictable handful of blacks youth causing robberies, stabbings, and murders.
So, no white youths commit crime during the Carnival? And it's okay for x amount to be poured into a funeral of a member of the Royal Family, but not for an event that gives enjoyment to over 200,000 people. If we say the total cost of the Carnival is £8,000,000, and the attendance is 200,000, then we need a revenue of £40 per person. The Carnival is spred over the August Bank Holiday, and as it's EASY to spend £40 on a day out with drink and food in London anyway, I think the Carnival is good value for money; better value than burying the Queen Mum, as no one danced at her funeral, and dancing is a good thing.
As regards your comments regarding fiscal drain, integrated cultures stop being a drain, and I'm sure you've gathered who has the final responsibility regarding integration, or at least what my opinion is!
I have to take exception to your presentation of the stats on racially motivated crime. You make one big, erroneous assumption; that immigrants report ALL racial attacks on them... I'm pretty sure most white people report racial attacks when they happen, as they are assured of a fair response. However, immigrants cannot make that assumption, as cases like the Stephan Lawrence case prove. Yet again, lack of integration is the governments fault, as they have alowed complacent racism to exist in the police force for far too long. Is it the immigrants fault that the police are untrustworthy, and thus make them feel unintegrated?
With the level of reporitn so completely undermined, your attempt to show by statictics that whites are besiged by nasty immigrant racists fails to convince, and spoils many good points made about a subject you obviously have some knowledge of, and I would like to see proof of this;
Muggings, robberies, and murders are also on a massively disproportionately level commited by blacks above what they are for whites regardless of the socio-economic level.
I'd also like to see proof regarding housing associations that exclude white people, as my understanding of the law is that this would be illegal.
Thanks again for an enjoyable debate
LDH

I will tell you what is one of the problems, besides needing to get off their arse, it’s their Muslim husbands who dislike their wives getting an education. They won’t let them go and do a college course, and make pals, learn a skill, or just make friends on some hobby course (there are literally thousands of courses that they can get for free.) And you know what happens when “white” people try and help the women in these situations? we get called racist!
NOW THIS is the most lucid thing you've said, Nemesis.
I am LMAO @ Abaddon.
I guess the general rule is, if you are invading and conquering another country, you don't have to worry about assimilating into their culture because might makes right. Hence the old Expression, "The sun never stes on the British Empire." I can't think of one country the Brits invaded where they made an effort to blend in, or accept the locals language, dress, custom, religion. Can you? (Not UK bashing here.)
If however, "they" emigrate to your country (voluntarily) they will get called towel-head, spear-chucker and every other name you can think of unless they DITCH their culture, language, religion etc and completely assimilate! [/i]
Abaddon states:
Oh, and, yes, there was a labour shortage... but there was no equal wage act yet, and businessmen being businessmen did often pay black people less.
which is similar to my earlier statement:
A friend of mine who is an investigator for the INS (immigration Naturalization Service) often tells me that a foreigner may be (hired/kept) over an American--get this--not because they 'work for less money' but--
because in their native countries they never had worker's rights and don't sue. Even for egregious violations!
Many farmworkers have fingers missing or have been exposed to toxic chemicals leading to the birth of retarded children. On the job accidents!! You know what they say? "That's ok!" They will not risk losing their job and never being re-hired just to file a report!!!
But no one addressed my earlier quote so I will just assume that everyone agrees with me. [8>]
That the employers don't bitch and moan about the foreigners (ESPECIALLY the illegals) because they are taking advantage of them. They don't give a crap. UNTIL that person becomes a citizen and then, as if by magic--
That person must become a completely law abiding citizen, contributer to society etc etc even when the example that has been set by the businessman is "It's not illegal if you don't get caught." and that it's ok to take advantage of people who are living on the fringes of society because nobody really cares about them anyway.[/i]
Lisa
Nemesis

Hi Abaddon,
Sorry Nemesis, I don't think all immigrants do have 'massive resources and help'. The West Indian immigrants of the '50's and '60's basically got off a boat. . .
You are missing the point; I was clearly referring to later generations, not 50 years ago. I agree the Jamaicans had to get on with it when they got here, they spoke the lingo, and so that wasn’t barrier. As for wages, they chose to come here after an invitation, we could have gone to many others if we wanted, if they were unfortunately not paid well by some, they had the opportunity of going back Jamaica, most were very grateful for the work at all.
I think trying to group immigrant groups purely by origin or classification as 'assylum seeker', 'migrant worker', or 'ecomomic migrant' is difficult and possibly futile. This is why I keep on going on about integration
I disagree “it’s futile”, people wanting to come here to work, pay their due in tax and be independent and not rely on the natives to fork our billions in housing and benefits are to be commended. Those who just come here for a free life are a world apart and deserve all the criticism they get for being such a burden. As for ‘Integration’ you never define what you mean. We are not obliged to invite the world and his brother to come and live here and have us wait on them hand and foot, or to make their life a stroll in the park by handing out billions of pounds yearly in benefits, healthcare, schooling, etc., and house them to boot. Can you imagine if 20 million poverty-stricken Africans decided to just pop over the water and take residence here? Or maybe 50 million Indians, or 100 million Chinese? Our first interest is our own country, not feeding the world. I see you make absolutely no mention of all the white natives who live in destitute poverty, and tens of thousands who are homeless. Funny how more then 99% of London’s rough sleepers are all white natives! If we can’t look after our own millions who live under the poverty line, why the heck are we papering to millions of foreigners and their descendants, and letting more and more in who don’t work, and probably never will, let alone pay back the billions they cost us.
Where do these lessons take place? In Holland, immigrants do get them, and I imagine that lessons of this nature will become common in England in the future. . .
I have to say I doubt it with the current climate of ethnic mass papering and race bias in their favour. Did you see the reaction that David Blunket (Home Secretary) got when he suggested that immigrants learn at least some basic English and “Integrate” into British society instead of wilfully isolating themselves. He also suggested citizenship classes, and guess what? Blunket was slammed as “racist” by all the non-white left wing ‘ethnic’ groups. They delighted in taking great offence so they could all get in to the papers. They have been spoon fed for so long they cry foul at the slightest hint of them taking any responsibility for their own actions in society. If they choose to travel across half the world and come here to live legally, or illegally, then the total onus is on them to make themselves a useful part of our society if they wish to stay. You keep saying we have to make the effort! They came here, they have to prove they are of some use, and can survive independently. We are not obliged to spend billions out of our taxpayer's pockets to educate, feed, house and look after them when they have done absolutely nothing to deserve it, and haven’t paid a penny in tax. Meanwhile we let our own natives sleep rough and live in squalid poverty!
As for the English language yes we have hundreds of words taken from Latin, Greek, French, German, etc., so what. That is what we have now developed as English, just as the French, Spanish, Portuguese, and many, many other languages have a mixture of words from all over the place. The point I was making was we, the English, are predominantly descendants from Anglo-Saxons, yes some other tribes were around, but the bulk of what you call English now are Anglo-Saxon in decent and they go back to as least 400AD. The point was we have taken all this time and effort to make this country what it is, why should we now allow an unlimited influx of basically (this is not a nice word) parasites. We have no obligation to let anyone just come here and demand “Integration” or any benefits at all. We are such a generous stupid soft touch we attract all the fake asylum seekers from all over the world, as they know well what a good life they can get without doing a single day’s work. Why should a Bangladeshi, or an Albanian who has contributed absolutely zero to the making, and taxes of this country get anything? Did I, my parents, grandparent and all my ancestors work so hard for all my inheritance to just go to some Muslim Bangladeshi who just turns up and demands to be housed in houses that were paid for with British taxes for the natives who are less well off to live in. Meanwhile we let our natives sleep in the street with all the crap and filth and think nothing of it as a new batch of fake asylum seekers arrive and get put in a hotels at the taxpayers expense for time indefinite, and then they take the houses/flats [apartments] that were build for the natives!
And why do you think that is? Do you seriously believe that they rob out of choice (real choice) in any greater a quantity than white kids? Well, you can, but I don't! Having known young black criminals, I know that if they can 'better' themselves, they do. STOP LOOKING AT THEIR COLOUR. Look at statistics, look at educational levels of them and their parents. Look at average levels of income. Look at the wealth of the families. Look at employment.
You'll see people turn to crime as a result of these factors, regardless of colour.
I will deal with your last statement first, you say poverty causes crime, I agree, to a degree; yes poor areas all over the world have higher crime rates. But that is as far as it goes. You forget there are millions of poverty stricken white natives who live in the U.K., but who never turn to crime anywhere near the levels of blacks, and that applies to many other races. Taking a naïve approach and blaming it all on poverty with blacks falls flatly down when whites in exactly, or far worse socio-economic situations and educational levels are magnitudes lower in their criminal behaviour than the average black man is.
Take a look at Jamaica for example, predominantly black, ruled by blacks for blacks, independent rule. And yet their crime rates now are the highest in the world! A tiny population of 2.5 million, and last year [2001] they clocked over 1,140 murders! Over 30 police officers murdered. Do you honestly expect them to have a change of attitude when they get off the plane in London, and go off to do their crack deals, to suddenly act any different and change their cultural disregard to life? We see the facts say no, as they are the mass cause of gun murders in the capital, and it has stuff all to do with “white integration” Abaddon, they choose that route, they are not forced into it, and so do the Jamaican descendants of those who came here in the 50s. They adopt Jamaican gun culture, gangster rap attitude, easy money and crack dealing, robbery, murder, race hate attack on magnitudes higher than any other race, and it has nothing to do with whites. Look at South Africa, they have a population around 43 million, and a murder rate of 56 per day! 20,000 per annum! That rate has shot up since Mandela got into power, I suppose it also must be the nasty white mans fault also? The more people think the black man is just a baby who needs to be spoon fed and pampered more, this problem with get out of control like it is in London now. You can bury your head the sand all you like, try in vain to ignore the wilful evil actions of so many young black men on whites, but that is all bull shit. Each one of us is totally responsible for our chosen actions.
Please listen to a member of the British National Party for five minutes before you make 'white hating racists' sound like such a threat to society. Did they jump out of bed and say "Goodness gracious me Prakash, I am feeling like rioting today, as I am being of the opinion that white people are bad. . . Clue...'Bradford'... 'deprevation'... and you obviously didn't know that the riots were triggered by white youths. . . It is GOVERNMENT that is the cause of the problem... the rioting has everything to do with deprevation and racism, but are you really gonna convince me if the rioters had an equal crack of the whip they'd be rioting? That's like saying they're different due to their race! ".
You couldn’t be more wrong Abaddon. The Pakistanis who live in poverty are no worse off than many millions of whites, and they [the white natives] never behave in such an evil psycho manner. And why are the Pakistanis in Poverty? I will give you a clue, so many are on welfare and get housing benefits also, they contribute so little to the expenses of the local council, (not to mention never paying of the houses in the first place, that was natives money), that the local councils have no money to make repairs or upgrade the estates. If you don’t pay your rents, or council tax bill where is the council going to get money?
As for you having a few “Asian” friends, were they Indian, or Pakistani Muslims? And what is that supposed to prove? Take a tour around many of the Pakistani, and Bangladeshi Muslim estates in London, Southwark, Tower Hamlets, Newham, Waltham Forest, and you will tens of thousands who have never worked since they got here, and have turned what were nice new estates into no go areas for whites, and trashed them to level that they no longer want to live there—they don’t pay their rents and then wonder why the estates are in decline, DOH!
As for Bradford, that is the biggest copout I have heard from you, and I’m surprised Abaddon. So the BNP were there looking for votes, free speech not allowed now? There were also radical Muslim fanatics and anti free speech groups there with the tiresome and predictable ad-hominem attacks “the BNP are racist, bla, bla bla”, and now you say this “triggered them”? What are these Pakistanis, Abaddon? A bunch of baboons who have not been fed so they get pissed off and try and murder innocent whites? Are they men or animals? Am I responsible for my actions, but some Muslim fanatic Pakistani not? I suppose the Pakis, and Bangladeshis in London were “provoked” to ride around in cars beeping their horns, cheering, and joyfully setting off firecrackers on September 11th all over London and outside their mosques! Oh what lovely people they are, and now you are excusing them casing the worse riots we have seen for decades because the British National Party wanted more rights for the native population! They are a bona fide political party. Maybe next time the left-wing Labour party puts a leaflet through my door for the upcoming council election, should I go out and lynch a few blacks, and then say “well I was upset with the leaflet, so it’s all their fault”? You amaze me Abaddon! Those Muslim fanatics caused millions of pounds of damage, injured over 200 police, and tried to burn alive a community club full of elderly white innocent pensioners by setting it on fire with petrol bombs and them parking stolen cars up by the doors and torching them so no-one could get out! They only survived because the club had a hidden basement storage area! And you say they are not responsible for this? Oh yeah, blame the whites again. What If I’m provoked by the black and Muslim Pakistan crime in London, can I get together some friends and burn alive some Muslims in their mosque and them say “well I’m innocent, I was 'provoked', as I was not a happy bunny”. Do you think I would get away without being labels racist, or a complete psycho? Humm, your mind is working funny today Abaddon.
As for Notting Hill Carnival, no way! That £4,000,000 comes from the police budget for greater London. None of the money spent on ‘confectionaries’ sold at the carnival ever gets back to the police! All the other council tax payers, and I, have to pay by getting a hiked increase in our council taxe bills, meanwhile the metropolitan police made cuts to the ‘on the beat’ officers because they had run out of money! Paying for some dodgy burger, or rice and peas off some black guy at carnival does nothing for the economy, or replaces the massive police resources that were used up for a two-day event. I’m sure all the people who got raped, robbed, and attacked last year were so grateful there were less police on the streets due to the budget being splurged on a two day black carnival.
I have to take exception to your presentation of the stats on racially motivated crime. You make one big, erroneous assumption; that immigrants report ALL racial attacks on them... I'm pretty sure most white people report racial attacks when they happen, as they are assured of a fair response. . . With the level of reporting so completely undermined, your attempt to show by statictics that whites are besiged by nasty immigrant racists fails to convince, and spoils many good points made about a subject you obviously have some knowledge of, and I would like to see proof of this
Well I say the opposite Abaddon, there is massive and excessive attention given the anything relating to any non-white being a victim. If anything there is underreporting of white cases of race hate victims, when was the last time you saw a black man being called a racist after he has just raped a young white women? The remotest small event against minorities gets massive over representation. The case here of the Nigerian boy Damilola Taylor, who bled to death after cutting his leg in an accident is a perfect example of that. There was massive and ridiculous press and media converge of it as an “evil murder”, luckily the supposed suspects were all black. Or it would have been “get those evil white racists” all over the media. His family only came here for free medical treatment on our national health service! And they were only here a matter of weeks and they got given a flat in south London! Forget the thousands of homeless natives stuck at the back of the housing register. In the end [today] the case has finished and no one has been changed, it was all put down to an accident and not a murder. They spent more then 2.5 million pounds (a record amount) of our money; over 200 dedicated police officers, and £50,000 reward for evidence, and all because he was black! Hundreds of white kids die each year from accidents, and they get zero media coverage, countless whites get murdered many by blacks and they don’t get even a tiny fraction of this coverage, if any, and not even 1% spent on their average investigation! All of this shows that it’s the whites in society they get zero recognition for their suffering compared to the blacks and other non-white ethnic groups.
As for all the other black crime rates, I will look forward to giving you this year's when they come out in Section 95 soon from the Home Office, I will post them then.
I'd also like to see proof regarding housing associations that exclude white people. . . .
Officially they can’t exclude you from applying, but in reality you don’t have a snowflake’s chance in hell of ever getting housed by these non-white organisations. There is not one single one for white and English minorities, of which many London boroughs are now.
I have enjoyed this discussion Abaddon, although I disagree with points you have made, I have no hard feelings. I just wish other threads could keep it less personal, or flaming.
Nemesis

Hi Lisa,
If however, "they" emigrate to your country (voluntarily) they will get called towel-head, spear-chucker and every other name you can think of unless they DITCH their culture, language, religion etc and completely assimilate!
I hope you are referring to the U.S. and not the U.K. Lisa, as it is not like that at all here. The term “towel head” is an American usage, I have never heard anyone here ever used that phrase at all, but I have heard some Americans use is for Muslims. The worst thing is they are showing their ignorance, as the ones they call towel heads, are Indian Sikhs, and not Muslims at all! As for the rest about “ditching their culture” is absolute rubbish, haven’t you read anything I have written? You realty need to get out of the U.S. and drop your outdated erroneous perception of what England, and Britain really are like. We are one of the most generous countries on earth! And treat ethnic minorities far better than you ever have in the U.S.—in fact far too much, which is out stupidity.
Englishman

Wow, convincing stuff from both Abaddon and Nemesis.
Seems to me that what is most troublesome to the residents of the UK is that they feel that their national identity is being eroded, and that if they voice their misgivings some one will hang a great big label around the neck of the dissenter and yell "Racist!"
I think that the pendulum of tolerance has swung a little too far this time, maybe the it's time for the immigrant population to make some efforts to fit in.
Englishman.
Hyghlandyr

Living in the United States I've experienced the so called reverse racism. Um, sorry, it isnt REVERSE racism folks. REVERSE racism would mean that people of another race LIKE me because I am different from them. It happens all the time here. If you are a minority it is ok to exalt your culture (if you can call it a culture..does ebonics really count folks?). But if you are white, european, and you do the same, that is racist. OK yes, it is racist. So too is it when minorities do it. And you know what? It is ok. People should be racists and happy with their culture. But they should also be willing to accept reasonable customs in the country in which they live.
I know a dude here who worked for a telemarketing company. They had standards of speech for their telemarketers when on the phone with clients. One black girl was reprimanded several times for speaking 'ghetto' (aka ebonics aka a non-make-it-up-as-you-go-along-language). Finally he had to fire her. She took the company to court because she claimed she was fired on the basis of race. In walks the owner of the business to the courthouse. Case dismissed. Yes you guessed it, he was black.
These issues are not issues of race, color, gender, ethnicity, or freedom. They are issues of business and proper conduct. When a buffet opened up down the street, the owner had hired mostly young black men as servers. No problem. But the problem arose because they were all letting their pants hang down around their asses and then wondering why people (including blacks) did not want them serving their food. He has since hired others in their place.
That on the surface seems a race issue to some. It is not. I am not going to apologize because I do not want some man, or woman (well ok woman IF she has J-Lo assets) serving me, with their pants hanging off of them. I don't care what race or gender they are (previous exclusion should be noted here, aka J-Lo).
The same thing with crime. I do not make the statistics in these countries. I am interested in why they exist. Is the rate of violent crime higher among blacks in the United States because many have to raise themselves, mother at work, father not in their life? Ok then find a way to solve that problem. On the other hand I had no father to raise me, and when he finally did come into my life, it took couple of years for me to get him out. My mother, please I won't even start. Still I am not involved in violent crime. Call me pragmatic, I've never been to jail and do not intend to go in the future. If a cop pulls me over I know that arguing with him, and certainly fighting or running from him, is entirely useless. A lot of minorities have not figured this out and wonder why they face violence from the police. Fight in the courts, not on the street and most of that will disappear.
Minorities and immigrants have excellent contributions to make to the nations they move into. But they also cause problems. To laud only the benefits and ignore the problems may be PC but it will not solve the problems at all. The double standards exist all over the place and because they cry victim we are to just nod our heads, feel guilty, and move along. Well guess what, some of us do not feel guilty, we do not nod our heads, and we will most certainly not move along. Get used to it.
Let's see, three wives, seven concubines, nine slave girls, and twenty-seven black nazi female body guards. I've only got forty-five women to go and my cult is complete
yrs2long

Thanks to all for the empirical data they supplied on why most everyone but the white man is the scum of the earth. How nice to be able to pillage and plunder nearly every land on which you've set foot and then with your newfound riches turn yourselves into Renaissance men. Yes, poor genteel people getting mistreated by the savages you helped to create. I'm sorry but it is not the black people who do the down and dirty dirty deeds like crash planes into buildings, swindle people out of their life savings with scams and dirty business dealings, rape women and children during wartime and plant bombs in front of federal buildings. Everything the white man does is done on a grand scale. I am afraid of the white man who, with one swoop of the hand sends millions into poverty and young men into useless wars. White people don't need pride groups, America (and its institutions) is one big white pride club. I have been spoon-fed movies, history books and tons of other media that glorify the white experience. Hyghlander, yes you had a rough childhood and look how you turned out. 'Nuf said. This is the white man's world. You should be blaming the Watchtower society, your parents and yourselves for anything you lack.
I, on the other hand, know that any good-for-nothing white bum can clean himself up, put on a suit and, lacking any of my credentials, come in off of the street and take my job. That is the reality of life in America. Any white folks who experience discrimination and prejudice based on their skin color on an almost daily basis can call me up anytime and I will gladly commiserate.
And will someone please tell Hyghlander that his personal experiences with black people do not make him the resident expert on black people nor does it constitute empirical data. I have dated white, Hispanic and Asian men, including lived very closely with and among them and yet I would not be so presumptious as you to claim to have encapsulated their character and essence. And furthermore, I wish I could claim my German, English, and American Indian ancestry in addition to my African lineage but the sad reality is that I can't be any of those things on any different day because to everyone who sees me, I am only black and any additional claims only make me look foolish.
Thanks to Abaddon and LDH for their objectivity.

Does This Make Me A Racist?

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