Epistemology. I Wonder 2...

braincleaned

How do we know what we know? What is the value of our knowledge?

I respect all beliefs for what they are. But many of us are being treated condescendingly by those who have more certainty than we atheists do. Yes, the more I age, the more my ignorance is obvious.
But not all feel this way.

Like the believers. I am always surprised how they just "KNOW" in their hearts.
And I don't mean just knowing; I mean they KNOW! As if the journey for knowledge was over. Done.
Hit by the grace of privileged knowledge — unchanged for the past 2,000 years.
As if anyone could say "Now I'm good. At this point I KNOW. No new information can possibly bring me better understanding!"

Is it me, or is this pure insanity; a red flag for further argumentation that would be a waste of precious time?
Friedrich Nietzsche famously said "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”

Ahhh… Faith: "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen." (Heb. 11:1).

Can you imagine going into court and having a judge use hope and trusting unseen evidence? Would you like that judge on your case?
Would you like a Judge that says "since I don't believe in the evidence of your innocence and that a lot of it is missing, it follows by default that you are guilty!" Guilt of the gaps... hehe...

Why do Believers have a double standard in — well — everything? Why are atheists looked down on for questioning these statements based in a total lack of evidence?

I still wonder…

braincleaned

I will check this thread later. I'm having a panic attack on what I am reading lately... like being stuck in the twilight zone, but not in a fun way.

cofty

Time to smell the flowers or gaze at the stars for a while.

I'm enjoying your contributions to rational thinking very much.

tec

I'm sorry you are having a hard time with what you have read. Having something that you believe in challenged... sometimes has that effect. I remember when I first confronted those zeitgeist claims... my heart was pounding. But they were baseless, and it helped me see that there is nothing to fear in knowledge.

I cannot speak for all believers... but I sure do not look down on anyone for questioning anything. Questions are good. Sometimes people don't really want the truth in the answers, and sometimes too much at once is too hard to bear, causing something like panic.

As to the OP... knowing one thing (like knowing Christ)... does not mean that the journey is over or that ALL is known. The journey just becomes about where He is leading, perhaps, and the things that He has to teach. If one wants to follow where He leads, that is. But He does not force people to learn anything beyond what they can bear, or even into acknowledging Him (with few exceptions, like Paul, who was persecuting and imprisoning/harming (even helping to stone Stephen) those who belonged to Christ)

Peace to you, truly,

tammy

braincleaned

My dear friend, you are forgetting that I was most of my life a follower of Christ, until in my journey I saw the toxicity of such belief. It goes much further than we can even explain here.
I have questionned the validity of Christ, and against my 'knowing' him and my strong bias for him, I have been hit with reality. For me, Christ is at a best peaceful man who may have existed.
Christianity was not his intention, and was mainly invented by Paul and his followers. But the fact that Christ himself refers to "His Father" — the one of the OT — is evidence to ignore him, historically, and spiritually.

Case in point, you 'know' Christ so much, that everything you think revolves around him... " As to the OP... knowing one thing (like knowing Christ)... does not mean that the journey is over or that ALL is known. The journey just becomes about where He is leading, perhaps, and the things that He has to teach. If one wants to follow where He leads, that is. But He does not force people to learn anything beyond what they can bear"

You see what I mean?
Do you see how this "knowing" stops you from even considering a doubt in your mind?
This is what I refer to in my OP. Many like you have that total faith that there is no questioning 'him'...

In short, my issue is with absolute faith — believing without evidence. Not only that, but claiming knowledge thru proxy. We believe because he or the Bible says...
I can't find for the life of me how this is reasonable. I use to... but I put my faith to the test.

braincleaned

Thank you cofty.

tec

I have no reason to doubt that you were a follower (a disciple of Christ)... or maybe seeker is a better word (because I assume that you were a jw, and the wts does not follow Christ, though some/many jws DO belong to Him, and He IS calling them OUT of that religion). But what you did do is between you and Him, not you and me. I am not trying to judge you or anything like that. But being a part of the wts is not a problem of knowing Christ... but rather of NOT knowing Christ. Much the same as other religions that teach and do toxic things in His name, teaching their followers the same as them.

Following Him and knowing Him are not necessarily the same thing either. He had MANY disciples... and when He taught something hard for them to hear, that they did not even ask Him to explain but just went with what they assumed He meant, all but the twelve left Him. Only the twelve remained, their faith in Him, and He could then explain the hard lessons to them. So perhaps you did not know Him as well as you think you did? That is not a question you have to answer to me. That is a question for you to ask yourself, and, preferably, Him.

But the fact that Christ himself refers to "His Father" — the one of the OT — is evidence to ignore him, historically, and spiritually.

This is where the misunderstanding comes into play. Because neither Christ nor God ever said... know the scriptures, know God. But rather, know ME (Christ)... know my Father as well. And 'This is my Son... listen to Him." God said that in front of Moses and Elijah. Of the three... God said, listen to Christ.

Israel belonging to God... does not mean that they knew the Truth OF God... else why would God have SENT His Truth TO them or all the prophets before Christ who were put to death, mocked, rejected?

What of the verses like the one from Isaiah 58 that I copied on the other thread? There are contradictions in the OT as to the nature of God. Christ shows us what is TRUE.

Peace to you,

tammy

braincleaned

Maybe this is the crux of the matter. Believing thru proxy. The Bible says so, or Jesus said so... but what about reason and logic?
Why not search for true and solid reasons to build our understanding. Saying "I don't know" for what we cannot know.
Some say about evolution, "where you there?"... one must laugh at this, as if anyone was there for the genesis of creation.

I see double standards EVERYWHERE in "faith".

I don't see anyone addressing my "Judge" illustration, Why? — because it doesn't even remotely dawn on believers that this illustration is a good parallel to draw.
It's like this example doen't have any merit... I find that spooky...

braincleaned

// I assume that you were a jw, and the wts does not follow Christ,//
That was an issue for me. So yes, you can count me in as a follower of Christ.

tec

Can you imagine going into court and having a judge use hope and trusting unseen evidence? Would you like that judge on your case?

Depends upon what you think is unseen evidence. What if it is something heard? Testimony, or a recording, perhaps? That is evidence... and that evidence is un'seen'. It is not seen... but it IS heard.

Would you like a Judge that says "since I don't believe in the evidence of your innocence and that a lot of it is missing, it follows by default that you are guilty!" Guilt of the gaps... hehe...

Lol.. of course not. But that is not what that verse on faith is describing.

Peace to you,

tammy

Epistemology. I Wonder 2...

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