Epistemology. I Wonder 2...

by braincleaned 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

tec

(going to watch Pacific Rim with my boys now... talk more later?... peace braincleand)
prologos

About the "judge" illustration:

are we not glad the case is never closed, and judgemenis still out? evidence is still being gathered, new detection techniques developped as we speak?

All attempts of invenying gods including the Jesus fixation, Wt dating have proven wrong so why keep searching?

because the not only the jury, but the detectives are still out.

so hold it district and defense attorneys.

eloquence is not enough to close, to clinch a pending case.
braincleaned

I do admit that I will NEVER understand an exJW who leaves the Borg and latches on to other Christian beliefs. Yes, I will admit that.

I will respect your choice of belief tec, and stop arguing my perspective.

I respect you very much. However, please let me be bluntly honest and say that I find your line of thinking quite scary.
I am thrown into an uncomfortable Twilight Zone... where I hear things that I cannot understand for the life on me. Out of the realm of logic.
The capitalization of Him; He... it's all so uncanny... like Jesus is a sort of cult leader... hypnotizing his willing followers.

I wonder... if He asked you to... would you kill for him?

I will stop now. I have said enough, I'm sure.
Peace.
braincleaned

LOVED Pacific Rim, tec!! Enjoy the show!

I apologize if II went too far in my words... I do have an issue. I paid a dear price for where I am today.
I'm really sorry if some scorn still shows.

Peace! :)
braincleaned

// because the not only the jury, but the detectives are still out.//

True dat.

Okay, back to work! ;)
braincleaned

Maybe I'm totally taking this belief/unbelief thing the wrong way! So please let me refocus and rephrase.

After all, I was a believer almost all my life, albeit not always comfortable with my cognitive dissonance. Today, I'm less arrogant in my 'knowledge' — as I have learned the hard way to question myself and show more humility about what I know (or think I know)… because frankly, I know too little to brag about.

When I was a JW, I had that confidence of KNOWING, although by proxy. This is true for any religious person — we trust our leaders, our Holy Books, our Gods. Proxies.
We have "Faith." Thus, real homework is not necessary, except maybe learning the arguments of our religious group.

Then I finally dared to question out loud some things that I found disturbing.
Was I willing to reconsider my beliefs, my biases? Did I trust my faith enough to put it thru the test of reason?

The real question is an epistemological one: How do we know what we know?
I realized that I never looked at my process to knowing. I didn't have any! It was all emotional and dictated by decades of just trusting a book, a god, and an organization that chewed my food to make it easier for me to swallow.
There was no process for getting my knowledge! I trusted an entity. Again, I had Faith in God; his book; his supposed Organization. Period.
Questioning was Satan's playground. Convenient.

When I realized I couldn't continue to defend my own God, nor his actions — I started to have an honest look at my thinking process. What kind of evidence and/or logic could show my understanding to be wrong (falsifiable)? How could I curb my confirmation bias (starting with conclusions, and reading all the material that confirmed those beliefs, while dismissing any information that contradicted them)? What were the counter-arguments? Would I be courageous enough to avoid rationalizing everything to fit my bias?
Of course, I knew that going this path would jeopardize a lifetime of investment for Jehovah, and endanger my friendships and family ties!

In the process, I realized there were basically two kinds of knowledge — OBJECTIVE and SUBJECTIVE.
The first is related to statements about the world and reality — the latter related to knowledge about feelings, with no use for evidence.
If I like pie, I don't need to back this up with logic or evidence.
If I claim the Earth is flat, then I need to back it up with logic or evidence.

What if I believed in God?
What if I didn't?
Are either one of these objective or suggestive?

Is it reasonable to claim knowledge on what we can't justify thru reality, and believing it?
I don't think so. Where am I wrong to think that "feeling God" is purely suggestive (and emotional)?

How do you know what you know?
Apognophos

Yes, I was just thinking the other day about the amazing gullibility that people of many walks of life display. If someone you respect tells you something, even something hard to believe, you may believe it just because of who told you. When you are raised with certain beliefs, it's a double-whammy because you are not only learning from the people you are closest to, but you are too young to think independently. I was told so many things growing up that I just accepted -- about supposed flaws in evolution; that some words in old Jewish writings had anything to do with me; that there were spirit creatures watching me; that I had the "truth" -- and I just soaked it right up as "knowledge". It's rather surreal to think of how much "knowledge" I allowed others to deposit directly in my brain without having to pass some sort of gate, some sort of test or background check.

That being said, I couldn't care less what someone else believes. I care what they do. If someone believes that they're from Mars, but they spend lots of time working for Habitat for Humanity because they believe they were sent here to be an ambassador to humanity, then I have a lot more respect for them than I do for someone who seems more interested in mocking other people's beliefs. In other words, I'd rather be around a peaceful person than a divisive one, and I'd rather see more "Martians" populating the earth and fewer of the the dogmatic types who stir up dissension with their arrogance and contribute little to the world except preaching to their own smug choir. It takes a lot of peacemakers to make up for one idiot who stirs the pot with his malicious intolerance, like that Muhammad cartoon guy.

You see, we each take away slightly different lessons from being a Witness. One of my lessons is to acquire knowledge in as firsthand a way as possible and stick as close to the facts as I can get. Another lesson is that it's higher-minded to be accepting of people who are different, rather than being a tribalist like the JWs are. Perhaps someone else's lesson is "religion is evil and should not be tolerated". But that wasn't the takeaway for me, personally. I've noticed some forum posters think that we all ought to have learned the same lessons from our experience, but it just doesn't work that way.
tec

I do admit that I will NEVER understand an exJW who leaves the Borg and latches on to other Christian beliefs. Yes, I will admit that.

What of those who believed in God BEFORE the jws? I have never been religious. The jws and my bible study is the closest I ever came to joining a religion. But faith and religion are not the same thing, and a religion like the wts stands in the way of faith in Christ far more than atheism ever could. Because the wts takes Truth, twists it, surrounds it in lies, and then taints truth for people who come to know that SHE (the harlot; the wts) is a lie. For example, anything to do with Truth (who is Christ... not a religion)... can set people off who have come to associate Truth with the wts. Who has tainted the word.

I did search for another religion after I realized that I could not join the wts, that they were not the Truth. I was still buying into the lie that there had to be a true religion out there.

But there is NO true religion. Christ is calling people OUT of religion, and TO Him. Even those who do not know that He speaks... are hearing this, though they might not know to credit this with the Spirit. Because people ARE coming out of her. There is even a new category... SBNR (or something along those lines... spiritual but not religious)

People are leaving religion, and seeking Christ alone in faith, because Christ alone is Truth. (I think some still carry some baggage (the bible being the inerrant word of god... rather than putting faith in the Spirit of Christ, alone)... but they are coming out.)

I will respect your choice of belief tec, and stop arguing my perspective.

You can respect my choice... and still discuss your perspective. Same goes for me in respecting your choice. I don't hear any disrespect from you.

Honestly, I hurt for you (and anyone else) that my sharing such a simple truth like listening to Christ... over anything and anyone else, in order to know God... something that even IS written (but just not taught by religion)... caused you any panic and fear. That fear came from them (religion and man who use fear to control people, and yes, keep them from leaving them and putting their faith in Christ alone)

I respect you very much. However, please let me be bluntly honest and say that I find your line of thinking quite scary.
I am thrown into an uncomfortable Twilight Zone... where I hear things that I cannot understand for the life on me. Out of the realm of logic.
The capitalization of Him; He... it's all so uncanny... like Jesus is a sort of cult leader... hypnotizing his willing followers.

Again, I am so sorry for that fear and if you wish to stop discussion for a while, I can respect that. If you do want to talk, then I am here.

God, Christ, Lord, He, Him... these are always capitalized when believers write of them though, right? I don't think that can be what scares you.

I wonder... if He asked you to... would you kill for him?

Please know that i am not offended by your question, and you do not hurt me by your question, or anything of the sort.

But these words show to me that you do not know Him. And I have been asked this question many times. Showing me that all who ask that question also do not know Him. (that is not a judgment or anything; just a truth)

Because HE would not ask me to do that. All that He teaches is against that. LOVE, forgive, show mercy, witness to Him, 'None of this!' (he said to Peter when Peter struck someone with his sword, adding that he who lives by the sword will die by the sword); lay DOWN your life for another... NEVER has he ever taught or said that anyone should TAKE the life of another.

That is not Him.

I will stop now. I have said enough, I'm sure.

Again, ask anything that you want to ask. I will answer as I am able. I won't be angry or offended by your questions regarding faith and Christ (and if I ever sound like I am, lol, you can toss these words at me)

LOVED Pacific Rim, tec!! Enjoy the show!

Giant sea-monsters; giant robots; all fighting in Hong Kong... what's not to like, lol? (I kept waiting for a godzilla reference)

I apologize if I went too far in my words... I do have an issue. I paid a dear price for where I am today.
I'm really sorry if some scorn still shows.

You didn't go too far, and I am not hearing scorn from you. Pain, yes, and fear... but also a desire to understand. And I do know that you paid a dear price for leaving the lie. Though you need not give up hope that what was lost to you may be restored (your loved ones - children at least; and even your faith and love of Christ and God, if you ever so desire)

Peace.

Thank you for your wish for peace. I know that you mean it, and please accept my wish for peace to you also,

Your friend and your servant, as one who belongs to Christ,

tammy
braincleaned

Thank you for your patience with me tec. And of course, I mean no disrespect for you, quite the contrary.

So may I ask 2 simple questions:

— How do you know what you know about Christ (or how do you know the sources you trust are true)?
and
— What was the process building up to your convictions?
tec

How do you know what you know about Christ (or how do you know the sources you trust are true)?

Because He tells me or shows me or His teachings/words/deeds (written or in the spirit even now) reveal Him. The Spirit (who is Christ) may also confirms something that someone else has shared from Him.

None of it is to glorify Himself, mind you... but rather to glorify His Father, since Christ is the living image of God.

I know that He (the source) is trustworthy because He has never spoken false, or led me wrong. He keeps his promises that other witnesses passed and/or wrote down for others to see. All of this tends to allow one to build their faith in Him.

What was the process building up to your convictions?

Like my story you mean? I hope you don't mind if I get to this question in the morning? I'm starting to 'fade' a bit. It is late here ; )

So I will talk with you more tomorrow.

Peace to you,

tammy

Epistemology. I Wonder 2...

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