Tec, thank you for your industrial argumentation with Braincleaned. I was off since, and i see you are meeting some commonground all together. i wish to put it simple on :"how you know that you know": that is by the time we can't ask more questions. otherwise we are still in a quest.and sometimes the answer to the our last question is we can't know [humility]. By that time if we see it fitting our interests we Just believe. we don't know that God exists, we believe he exists. and belief in God is a stonger degree of knowledge, I wish braincleaned can have it since he can't get answers to his last questions about things, numerous things. Braincleaned, you are one step ahead to believing!.
Epistemology. I Wonder 2...
by braincleaned 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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braincleaned
Ancientofdays, I totally agree on fideism. But this is still a philosophy that has immense holes in it, and assumes starting points without any attachment to reality.
My point of reference is reality — something I admit is not always obvious and is often a thing of perception... but persception is only an interpretation of reality. -
braincleaned
//belief in God is a stonger degree of knowledge//
Rip, you are leaving me speechless.
Needless to say when I believed I did go thinking these things — but the sheer absurdity of such thought only proves how detached belief is from reality.
There is logic and even precious morals in the story of "Little Red Riding Hood". I could be extremely knowledgable about the story, know the full bio of the French Charles Perrault who was the first to pen the tale. I could talk for hours about how it teaches to not trust strangers, and have a debate to defend the logic of a wolf being able to talk in those days. I could philosophize on the meaning of the Red Hood itself, and yadda yadda yadda — BUT it is a fairy tale. It is NOT REAL. It's circular logic.
I'm sorry that you think I don't have answers. I do. More than ever — and the quest continues...
My questions are posed to understand the other, reason, and incite dialogue and thinking... -
tec
What was the process building up to your convictions?
I may not be understanding what you are asking about this question, so please feel free to ask for further clarification if need be.
I always believed in God. There is never a time when I did not know he was there... and this, yes, by sensing/feeling Him. That is why we seek Him... we know He is there.
But it is the truth that is in the teachings of Christ that led me to want follow Him... and then the evidence that He has kept His promises and IS alive and DOES speak... that lead me to my conviction.
I followed Him because I loved Him from what I knew of Him through his teachings - word and deed. I loved His Father because Christ loves His Father, and I learned - was given eyes to see and ears to hear - that Christ is the Image, Word, Truth of His Father... so that I knew and loved His Father as well. I eventually set the bible aside... and went to Him (as He says to do, as is even written in that book, and as others had witnessed to the truth of Him being alive and speaking "my sheep hear my voice")... in Spirit, listening to Him and letting Him teach me.
I have learned about other religions; I have read the opposing arguments (I have them here all the time, lol) I know that the bible is not inerrant, nor all inspired, and I know that religions and their doctrines are from man and not from Him. When people put their faith in these other things that man has come up with, their faith can and does fall. Because that is like building one's house upon the sand. But faith in Christ, who is the Rock (and so a house built upon the rock), does not fall. No matter what wind and waves get thrown at it.
People teach all manner of false things about God, and others believe them... then, when they are shown to be false... people stop believing in God, and they stop seeking as well. (not all people... some realize that they got sidetracked, and shake the falsehood off while continuing to seek that which they sought to begin with: Truth)
About the first answer though — please forgive if I misunderstand — do you mean you hear voices? Or are you talking about personal revelation?
One voice. Yes. Having something revealed by Him, is also hearing His voice.
As He has said:
"My sheep hear my voice."
"I have more to call, and they will hear my voice also."
"The Spirit will teach and guide you into all truth."
Then of course there are the few examples we have written down so that we can SEE what Christ meant by those words. Christ spoke to Paul on the road to damascus, and Paul learned FROM Christ, who is the Spirit. Christ gave Peter his vision about eating unclean animals... and then spoke to Him in that vision. Christ also spoke to Cornelius, regarding Peter. Christ spoke to John, while giving John that revelation, telling John things that John must say to nations as well as to the seven churches.
In what sense is he talking to you or showing you things? How does it translate? Did you mean thru the Gospels?... in which case the second part of my 1st question still holds.
Sometimes He speaks in words (questions or statements), sometimes in reminders of what is written (in scripture or elsewhere); sometimes in images and/or dreams; sometimes in revelation - like understanding being given about a truth that the Spirit confirms in you.
For instance,
After I stopped my jw bible study, I let the mormons in (being polite), and as I sat listening to them... I heard my Lord asking me (though I did not know it was Him speaking at the time... I attributed the words to myself... but I have come to recognize his voice and remember instances in the past where He was speaking, not me):
"What are you doing? Why are you now listening to them? Did you learn nothing?"
And everything in me screamed for them to get out, for me to get away from them. (my sheep will flee from the voice of a stranger)
He answers questions that I ask... not always right away, sometimes I cannot hear yet (like how in science you need building blocks to understand a new theory), or I simply cannot yet bear it (too hard to hear, so I close up my ears or harden my heart). Sometimes, he then gives me the answer in a dream. Sometimes that is easier to accept. Like learning something by means of metaphor. He has also brought scriptures to mind when I have been unsure of something that He has told me (or some understanding that He has given me)... OR... when I have been unsure of something someone else has shared from Him.
Hope that helps answer your questions.
Peace to you,
tammy
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tec
My question to Tec - do you experience cognitive dissonence in your current beliefs?
Cognitive dissonence comes when there is a conflict between reality or evidence... and a belief, right? Like you know something is wrong, but you ignore it?
No. Once I did... but I have learned when something comes up that seems to be a conflict... I can research it... or I can simply ask my Lord about it and He will answer me. Because there is nothing that is against Him, that is also true.
Maybe you can give me some examples of what you mean further, or what yours were?
Peace,
tammy
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tec
Tec, when you say "listen to Christ", could explain exactly what this means as succinctly as possible?
If my response above to BC does not answer this question for you, please feel free to ask for something more specific.
For me, and I mean no offense, your constant claims of having heard this and that, and having such and such revealed to you by Jesus, just makes Jesus seem like a dick. What makes you so special to get this attention from the Lord? Why does he choose to communicate so clearly and so directly with you, but others get nothing? Why won't he speak to me?
He probably has (is?) spoken to you, and you did not know that he speaks and did not recognize Him. He may STILL be speaking, but you do not hear Him. Have you asked, in faith, for ears to hear Him? As with most I know who profess to belonging to him and hearing Him, He was speaking to me long before I heard and/or recognized his voice. (though I still followed His voice... like knowing that HE is the image and truth of God and that we are to look to Him to know God; that is even written and yet so many people don't SEE it)
Not wanting to hear the truth also stops us from hearing Him... because He is not going to speak anything other than the Truth to us. Sometimes we harden our hearts against Him... and so we do not hear Him. I have done it in regard to a question that i asked Him, and immediately hardened my heart because i really only wanted one answer, so I was not open to hearing the truth if that truth was not the answer that I wanted.
It is not that I or anyone who hears Him are 'special'. It simply has to do with faith. Knowing when I asked for ears to hear, that I would receive them... no matter how long it took, I did not care. I continued to follow Him, out of love for Him, and left the rest in His hands, full faith in Him.
So faith that He is alive and does speak for one; faith that He would grant the request for ears to hear Him two; faith also IN what He speaks... and the desire to do His will, share what he gives us, to serve Him and His Kingdom and those who belong to Him. Not to do our own will with what He gives us.
Sometimes we cannot hear him because we are listening to other voices also. Like religion. Someone in the wts listens to the wts... because their faith is in them. Not in Christ. Not in God. In that religion and those men... and they cannot hear any other voice, or if they did, they would reject him in favor of the one that they love more, the one that they serve.
Soemtimes we carry baggage from what man and religion have taught us, and so their voices still interfere with the truth that Christ speaks. So that some cannot hear a simple truth like 'know Christ, know God.' They have to add to that (but what about this in the OT, or what about this or that, et), because that is what their former or current teachers/leaders taught them, by their example.
May you hear, if you wish and if you thirst, as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life!"
(the Spirit... who is Christ; the Bride... those who hear and belong to Him; the water of life... holy spirit that comes from the Father and through the Son;... just as the grain - life - came from Pharoah - representing God; through Joseph - representing Christ; when there was a famine in Egypt)
Peace to you,
tammy
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braincleaned
I think I speak for many of us tec in saying that while I can see your sincerity — at the same time, I am concerned about you.
You do know that hearing voices is not normal, right?
As for the question of process, I think that you have answered honestly: there was none — as you always believed in God.
My dad was like that too. It was in his genes to believe in God, and precisely the Biblical God & Jesus.
I fear that your answer is not satisfying to most of us (even theists), because to the question "How do you know what you know?" your answer is "I just know", which of course, is not an answer.
This is why process is important. When for like my dad and your belief is a default — the least that must be expected of you is to question and test your default bias. Otherwise you risk seeing everything else as false by default, hence becoming condescending to others, which is a perverted form of disrespect.
Do you see what I mean? -
jgnat
This might explain some of it:
The Brain Processes Facts and Beliefs the Same Way
http://mag.newsweek.com/2009/09/30/fact-impact.html
tec and I read Hebrews 11:1 differently. I say faith cannot be fact based, otherwise it is not faith. tec says the opposite. She is satisifed that her internal evidence is sufficient, and continues to broadcast that "evidence" to others. From a scientific point of view, of course, it is not evidence at all.
Ever tried to hold a live eel?
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braincleaned
Yes. This is why like many in this case (and this is just a general observation), the admonitions to come to Jesus feel very condescending; self-righteous even. Again, I'm not accusing Tec to be like that, but that IS how it comes off.
Faith in this case IS the evidence. I cannot argue that.
All I can say is that this is a subjective opinion (based on feeling) as opposed to an objective opinion (based on empirical evidence).Hence, I rest my case and move on... -
jgnat
Lots of us carry on internal dialogues. For some, that voice may even become an "other". In some people it is a disorder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CsIBlyyRUck
There's also that subconscious pushing us around, that our rational mind makes all kinds of excuses for.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jonas_eliasson_how_to_solve_traffic_jams.html