Epistemology. I Wonder 2...

by braincleaned 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Watkins

  Braincleaned - you've gotta be my favorite atheist! Don't get a big head, I know relatively few, lol. But you are respectful and your questions and answers are far from demeaning - and I respect that a LOT.

  I rarely join in discussions like this... they always seem to end in anger... but I do like to read how others reason and how they come to conclusions.

  There are many others(me!) like Tec, who don't believe in traditional/fundamental Christian teachings - such as Genesis being the end of the discussion about evolution. There is so much more to be learned outside the bindings of one book, but religious fanatics don't seem to venture far enough from it to realize that. I guess I don't think of it as an either/or proposition, as new findings in the sciences add to my faith, and don't detract from it.

  Many can't embrace another religion after the wt - who can blame them?! Phfft, the wt with all it's "knowledge"... nothing but a farce. Religion makes "faith" look like some sort of hysteria... all we have to do is look at it's history to the present - it's filled with contradictions and outright evil. 'Religion' hardly ever speaks well of the God they give lip service to.

  I don't NEED religion or what they teach. I believed in God before my stint with jws, but they almost ruined my faith altogether. I think I understand how some come to conclude there is no God - it's easier to explain that than how one can still believe... but I do. I don't think I have to have all the answers - I still have more questions than answers.

  If I can take away only one thing from this discussion it's this: that all atheists are not alike and we shouldn't paint them with one broad brushstroke - and all believers are not alike and shouldn't be painted with one broad brushstroke. I'm really quite fond of everyone on this forum, so I, for one, will put down the paintbrush permanently.

  W
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  braincleaned

  //If I can take away only one thing from this discussion it's this: that all atheists are not alike and we shouldn't paint them with one broad brushstroke - and all believers are not alike and shouldn't be painted with one broad brushstroke.//

  On spot Watkins! Yes.

  I'm probably in the same kind of realm as you and Tec when it comes to atheism — because I also have very deep convictions that are not the norm for many modern atheists.
  Example: for the life of me I cannot imagine a beginning. I just cant. When I was a believer, I had no problem with infinity. It was simple for me to understand, even as a kid. A common circle (or sphere) had all the elements of infinity: where/when did it start, where/when did it end?
  Nothing comes from nothing, as the first law of thermodynamics confirms. My first thought was that even a creator god needed the elements to create... Who can create something out of nothing? There is not one example of something coming from nothing. Not one. Only in theoretical mathematics can this be tinkered with.

  Today, many admirable scientists redefine "nothing" — but to me that doesn't change the fact that all the elements of this Universe had to have always existed.
  I am CONVINCED from what I have read all these years, that Nature has always existed. I'm convinced (so far) that the Big Bang was but one breath of an infinite series of Big Bangs — from a living and breathing univers. I also have hope that quantum physics will enlighten us more on this complex subject.

  This is where my understanding of 'origin' hits the same wall than the one theists hit. Both of us start with an infinate cyclic entity.

  Here is a tiny extract of something that Carl Sagan reasoned, that changed my line of thinking years ago:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIx0IQbaLRU
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  braincleaned

  So back to the OP... how do I know what I know?
  I only know what science has either logically explained, or empirically proved.
  The rest is an epistemic jungle.
  
  Like everybody — I mostly feel and follow what is most logical to my understanding; all open to change upon new intelligence.
  
  That openness, is maybe what differentiates us atheist from theists. For the latter, the existence of Christ is unquestionable.
  That is the main difference that I see — although I may be mistaken on this.