Epistemology. I Wonder 2... (page 3)

braincleaned

Okay — sweet dreams. :)

About the first answer though — please forgive if I misunderstand — do you mean you hear voices? Or are you talking about personal revelation?
In what sense is he talking to you or showing you things? How does it translate? Did you mean thru the Gospels?... in which case the second part of my 1st question still holds.

zound

Not to interupt the discussion - but just wanted to interject one thing:

I too do not understand JW's who latch onto other beliefs after discovering the truth about mind control etc. I had a faith of sort at one point as a JW - but my time as a believer whilst a JW and briefly afterwards was never without cognitive dissonence.

My question to Tec - do you experience cognitive dissonence in your current beliefs?

braincleaned

Good question.

Phizzy

I think that when I look at the various people in the world, and how what they do turns out, that it is obvious that an evidence based life, or to put it another way, a rational life, is better than one based on subjective experience. Of course, the rationalist must adhere to the best of moral standards, or he/she could commit evil.

But, the non-evidential way is dangerous, just look at the Schizophenic who listens to his voices and murders someone.

That is why the question to Tammy was so good, would she kill if her "Lord" told her to ?

2+2=5

After weeks and even months of researching the WTS and all their failed predictions, deliberate deceptions and so on, I obviously concluded that the WT religion was not the truth.

I held on to a belief in the bible and Jesus for a brief moment afterward. This belief in Jesus and the bible lasted only weeks not months. For me, it just doesn't make any sense logically or provide any satisfying answers.

Tec, when you say "listen to Christ", could explain exactly what this means as succinctly as possible?

For me, and I mean no offense, your constant claims of having heard this and that, and having such and such revealed to you by Jesus, just makes Jesus seem like a dick. What makes you so special to get this attention from the Lord? Why does he choose to communicate so clearly and so directly with you, but others get nothing? Why won't he speak to me?

I spent my youth and young adulthood trying to please him. Can I not even get a "Hello, how's it going? Jesus loves you better days are just around the corner", or something? Anything??

I have prayed thousands of times, but I have not heard a peep.

zound

I will say that Tec is a pretty good sport - she always attempts to answer questions, even though some of the answers are a bit vague.

Ancientofdays

I like the questions in this topic. @Braincleaned : I think that we as a JWs have experienced a kind of fideism , and not faith. Fideism is by definition opposition between faith and reason . But our fideism was very unusual because it was based on information , exercise of logic , rhetoric, we had the "knowledge". Why the fuck then, once evident that this " knowledge" was inflated by faulty logic and full of irrational elements , each of us refused to stop immediately being in the org. , is a personal matter, everyone has their own different answer. It seems obvious that we have been deceived, among hundreds of others topics, about the true nature of faith. Not that I have faith , for now. I had some discussion with Catholic friends , also a philosopher . According to Catholic tradition , and Thomist philosophy faith is not contrary to reason . Thomas believed that we come to God rationally, by reason. It's interesting stuff , but difficult . Good for philosophers. Which I'm not . Your other really striking question is how we know what we know ? Being able to answer would be like finding the Philosopher's Stone ... I think there is a step before the knowledge , before the first conscious thought . It's perception. WTS was diabolical in shaping our perceptions . Think for example, when we read the news
and , unconsciously , we put focus on the news that confirmed : "the end is so imminent" From the moment of perception , everything that follows are inferences.
But most of what we can infere is based on what we already know ...

So , apparently we're in a loop.

But it is not always the case, because otherwise mankind would not have
made progress and scientific progress would stuck ...

.. and we would all still JWs

yadda yadda 2

Christians know squat. They absolutely 'know' that ancient 'miracles' written about millennia ago were real historical events and they project that 'knowing' forward in time...

Utter balderdash!

Religious 'faith' is nothing but credulity.

credulity [krɪˈdjuːlɪtɪ]

n disposition to believe something on little evidence; gullibility

tornapart

Sorry Braincleaned I haven't read all the posts. Just your OP. I have to say based on that, it seems to me a little generalised. As if ALL believers are this way.

I am constantly asking questions and reading things to try and answer those questions. I am a believer but certainly don't think I have all the answers. Instead my questions just throw up more questions. About everything! I base my belief on the conclusions I've come to and my own life experiences. As everyone has to, believer or non believer.

Also I don't think atheists are looked down on for questioning theists statements. It happens when atheists seem determined to crush a theists beliefs and hence their faith. For what purpose?

Terry

Unreasonableness can't be understood using reason.

Why? Because it is UN reasonable. Duh.

The path of least resistence is justified by many different strategies, not the least of which is the admission there is NO REASON involved.

So, they "just" know.

It is right up there with "Because I said so."

A reason which contains nothing reasonable is a confession of desperation.

Epistemology. I Wonder 2...

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