Fallacies about Faith

by tec 340 Replies latest jw friends

  • zound
    zound

    If I remember correctly the original point of bringing up the death is a person/mind/whatever was to lift the blame from god for killing all the firstborns and place that blame on 'death'.

    Two things:

    #1. he will not permit the Destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.

    So god clearly can permit 'death' to NOT do his thing - but chose not to.

    #2. But regardless of whether you think it was death... or an angel of death... or abaddon/apollyon/destroyer... as another being or as figurative... it is the destroyer who was released and permitted to strike down the firstborn of Egypt

    If I purposely released a vicious dog on someone and it killed them - did I kill the person or am I absolved from guilt because it was the dog that technically killed the person?

  • tec
    tec

    What does? That it can have a will without a mind - or that it can't have a will without a mind? (Don't you need a want/desire to "will" something? ["Will" as seperated from a simple purpose - my ashtray has a purpose])

    What you said. Will with a mind.

    Since this was in answer to my question about death having a "will", I'm not sure what you mean? (An image of what, and how does this help us know god?

    I just meant that without an image (Chirst) we would not be able to understand God. So that instead we would probably have a more 'deistic' God, rather than being able to know Him through the Image He sent us OF Him.

    Taking this comment with what you then went on to say about death being more worrying than the Devil: I find that curious. When I believed (take into account here Jdub theology and the whole "god's sovereignity" thing), I never understood the whole argument about heaven vs paradise earth... What does it matter? It matters that we prove god right, even if we get no reward at all. (At least that's how I thought. My point being that I cared little about death at all ["The Great Nothing" seemed fairly peacefull a prospect in the end and no more destructive in achieving its goals than god])

    I understand what you are saying, but you understand that jw theology on the sovereignty thing was incorrect.

    Death is the last enemy to be defeated.

    To pick up on zound's point here - Is it possible perhaps that someone (you/her/both of you) is simply mistaking the bible's fondness for "poetic" language and taking this too literally? Just a thought. After all, I'm not a believer and claim no insight.

    Just by going on what is written... of course this is entirely possible. It is just as possible that someone takes poetic verses too literally... as it is that someone mistook a literal thing for a poetic device.

    Knowledge gets forgotten as time passes, and meanings of words and phrases can also change.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    If I remember correctly the original point of bringing up the death is a person/mind/whatever was to lift the blame from god for killing all the firstborns and place that blame on 'death'.

    Yes... so I would just suggest that you re-read the posts from the page and two before as to the reasons why the destroyer was released (and the discussion leading up to that before we went into a discussion about personification of death). Because nothing in the response changes if it was death or an angel of death or the destroyer, etc.

    Adamah, everything that you have written is still based upon my ponderings about a concept as a child. (I didn't even think what your post HAS me thinking as a child... i didn't think anything at all about the 'great' nothing, lol. Just about the nothing itself) Had nothing to do with an imaginary friend, or anything else that you are posting. I didn't even have one of those. I'm not getting drawn into a back and forth that you have based on something entirely fabricated in your own mind.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    Oh, I do have something quick to address in your post after all, Adamah:

    Anyway, that counter is (yet another) variation of a theme of your favorite argument, the "Tu Quoque" ("but you do it, too!) defense. Did you say that as if to prove my point that you engage in childlike reasoning at times?

    I did not use this 'tu quoque" 'but you did it too' defense.

    You are adding the 'too'.

    When really it is a "How about you take your own advice... since YOU are the one actually doing the thing you accusing me of doing."

    Not the thing that I DID... but just the thing that you accuse me of doing.

    Yes, it is also hypocrisy to judge/rebuke someone for doing something that you, yourself, do. But that is another point all together.

    Can you see the difference?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Tammy,

    You have a long history of posting your views on the board. A very long one. Why people keeping feeding you encouragement to go on is beyond me. I am no under no obligation to pretend that you are normal. Let us face it. It is normal for people to hear Jesus talk to them unless they are inmates at Bedlam or Bellevue. Also, you have no cogent theology. None. Not even a tiny shred.

    Overall, I do believe the athiests hammer too hard on believers. When people argue for the incredible, it is something else. How many times will I have to see drivel from Shelby or you. Two people on this forum are my last straw. There are many believers on this forum. They don't bother me. It has to do with arrogance and not belief.

    Come, hither Jesus. Let us have an intimate talk about such matters that cannot be explained or uttered. My Jesus talks to me. You must come to Jesus. Oh, I am so much better than you. Oh,, Jesus, I have love throes. I am Tammy and God loves me. He is my lover.

    Imagine all the members on this forum, you drive me up a tree. What would you have to say if you eliminated Jesus as your secret talker? Nothing. There is no message now with your messages from Jesus. How many t ruly holy people have lived for many centuries on earth but you are so special b/c Christ talks to you. I have limits!

  • tec
    tec

    How about you just do as you keep saying you are going to do... instead of proving yourself to be a hypocrite and a liar again and again, growing more and more vulgar as you go along?

  • DJS
    DJS

    Why do you all humor the arrogant, delusional narcissist? Ignore her. It will improve the board. The banter with her isn't even entertaining anymore.

  • adamah
    adamah

    TEC said- Maybe you should have read that warning before you hit submit.

    Adam said- Anyway, that counter is (yet another) variation of a theme of your favorite argument, the "Tu Quoque" ("but you do it, too!) defense. Did you say that as if to prove my point that you engage in childlike reasoning at times?

    TEC said- I did not use this 'tu quoque" 'but you did it too' defense. You are adding the 'too'.

    TEC, you've gotta be shittin' me, right?

    You've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that not only do you do not understand the basic fallacies used in contemporary logic, but you also didn't pay attention in your Junior High School literature class (never-mind bothering to take a course in Latin!) to know what 'tu' means in Latin, eg when Julius Caesar asked the question, 'Et TU, Brutus?" after someone who he thought was his friend had betrayed him and stabbed him, along with all the other Senators?

    'Tu' in Latin means, 'too'.

    ('Et' means 'you', FWIW)

    Now look at your words again which I quoted above, and you should be able to see your words are a CLASSIC example of 'tu quoque', since your statement implied I didn't take my own advice (i.e. the graphic warning to avoid talking out of one's arse), and hence you accused me of playing the "tu quoque" card.

    HOWEVER, I'm not the one who's talking out of my arse.

    Whether you're talking about baby teeth, living waters, or death being personified in Exodus, it's pure silly-string.

    On the latest jewel about death personified in Exodus, ancient Jews had no moral problems conceiving of God's heavenly angels delivering death, after being sent to Earth as avenging angels, eg that was the role of the two angels who accompanied Jehovah to Earth to visit Abraham; they went on while leaving God to look the other way to deliver "righteous" Lot and family so the fireworks could begin, after they were ordered by God to destroy and kill the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. The avenging angels causing the deaths of first-born ten of both man and beasts wasn't even an eyebrow raiser, since it was absolutely a moral cake-walk for ancient Jews.

    Heck, that was the entire premise behind Satan originally, as seen in the account of Job. 'Satan' is actually a title or a job description (in Hebrew, Satan means 'accuser'), and it's NOT a pronoun or personal name; the role explains why Satan was found in Heaven, serving as a member of the Jehovah's Divine Counsel (Hebrew, Elohim, a plural word, referring to many members of the Team), since Satan WAS a member of God's Team AFTER the Fall (since Job lived AFTER Adam and Eve's fall), and Satan had to ask permission from God to authorize and approve of all of Satan's actions.

    Heck, look up destroying angel sometime.

    TEC said- Yes, it is also hypocrisy to judge/rebuke someone for doing something that you, yourself, do.

    The "tu quoque" fallacy is used as a defense AFTER been caught red-handed, as a weak-sauce excuse attempt to justify the offense by pointing out how the other party does the same. It's an ACCUSATION of hypocrisy, or attempting to shift focus off one's self .

    NOW, show me where I've been hypocritical above (i.e. where I've committed ANY tuo quoques; hint: I haven't) since otherwise, your charge of my being hypocritical fails, too.

    Adam

  • tec
    tec

    ****TEC, you've gotta be shittin' me, right?

    You've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that not only do you do not understand the basic fallacies used in contemporary logic, but you also didn't pay attention in your Junior High School literature class (never-mind bothering to take a course in Latin!) to know what 'tu' means in Latin, eg when Julius Caesar asked the question, 'Et TU, Brutus?" after someone who he thought was his friend had betrayed him and stabbed him, along with all the other Senators?

    'Tu' in Latin means, 'too'.

    ('Et' means 'you', FWIW)

    Now look at your words again which I quoted above, and you should be able to see your words are a CLASSIC example of 'tu quoque', since your statement implied I didn't take my own advice (i.e. the graphic warning to avoid talking out of one's arse), and hence you accused me of playing the "tu quoque" card.

    HOWEVER, I'm not the one who's talking out of my arse.***** Adamah

    .

    I believe we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, lol.

    Nothing you said above makes any sense at all. It was YOUR definition that I went BY.

    I didn't accuse you of hypocrisy, btw. I just pointed out that someone who may have used the 'you did it too' defense might simply be pointing out the hypocrisy of someone else rebuking them when they do the same thing, themselves. The only person I accused of hypocrisy on this page was Band. Complaining about you and also Shelby, and then doing the same or worse to me, is hypocrisy. As for the rest, I have nothing more to add at this time to what has already been said.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Tammy,

    I am showing extraordinary reserve. You have no idea how much i detest your constant voice hearing bragging. Almost as much you lack of scriptural knowledge. Maybe you would more to discuss with your lover Jesus if you cracked open a NT once in your life. Reading this drivel for years is more than I can take. You don't want to know what I truly think......No more ammunition for someone who gets her jolllies from asserting she hears voices.

    Do you know the ego of a Pope? No one talks to God. Are you better than Thomas Merton or a Christian missionary on the ground in Africa? No, you are Tammy, o the blessed! I call it fraud.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit