Fallacies about Faith

by tec 340 Replies latest jw friends

  • tec
    tec

    How do we know that anyone cried out to God?

    Because God said,

    "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that i will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

    There had to be decent people in Nazi Germany - the Resistance members come to mind. The Old Testament casts just about anyone who is not a YHWH worshipper as evil incarnate. What were the procedural processes that led God to condemn S & G?

    First the outcry from those who were harmed/raped/killed/etc. Second the 'investigation' to see if the accusations were true and as bad as what they sounded. Third, the promise to spare the entire place an account of ten righteous men. Fourth, the escape for anyone righteous and their family (like Lot and his family, his righteousness shown in the way he protected and sheltered the two strangers from those who would do them harm), from the coming destruction. Fifth, a resurrection of the dead (some to life and some to judgment)... that has not yet happened.

    Does a six month old have moral responsibility for the actions of an adult?

    No, but the parent makes decisions for the child. Unfortunately to their detriment at times. Just as Adam made a poor decision to the detriment of his children, though God made it so that his children did not have to be consigned to death, but could return to the Garden and come to life. Same as God can give life to the children whose parents' decisions cost them their lives.

    These stories aren't fleshed out.

    I agree. There are always details that are missing. Because the written word is not living... but is more two dimensional. Which is why we have Christ... to show and teach us the Truth of God. To help us to SEE. I don't know every detail of what happened in the OT, and someone mentioned above that the conclusion is that the bible contradicts itself... well, of course it does. I have never said otherwise. But sometimes people use these OT stories to condemn God... but do not think for even a moment about WHY God acted, or WHAT/WHO God was protecting; and what lesson/example the account is revealing.

    They are more Israel, YEAH! Others - died. If the account is correct, where is the evidence in the debris of that time period?

    S&G came BEFORE Israel. Whether you take it literally or symbollically.

    Again, you can not share what great truths or love notes Jesus shares with you.

    Again, I have shared many things that Christ has shared with me.

    I'm not sure why you think the truth is going to be different than was given to Paul or Peter or any of the other apostles?

    Christ is the Truth. Listen to Him. COME... take the gift of the water of life... FREE.

    Christ shows us God. Know Christ, know God.

    I don't believe you have the creative writing skills.

    You don't need creative writing skills to write as to the truth you are given.

    (That being said... I do have those... creative writings skills. I do write, and am published. Been a few years, lol, but still...)

    Rather, we are supposedly to be impressed with your assertion. Wow, that TEC ,truly has Jesus! It doesn't matter that her Jesus might completely negate the historical Jesus. Having Jesus talk to you absolves you from scriptural authority or any tradition by any faith group.

    You continue to make this same assertion, and it is wrong every time you make it. Plus, every time you ask for a scriptural backing... or say that there is no backing... you have been provided WITH the scriptural backing. Because anything that I am given to share IS backed also by what is written. So that accusation holds no water.

    Paul said to look to the fruits of the spirit. I don't notice how you are a beacon of this forum for all the voice hearing.

    Well, I am not a becon on this forum for all the voice hearing. So... that might be why you don't notice it?

    And regardless of what Paul said... God said to look to Christ.

    How have we be enlightened? Baby teeth appeared on your forum. It is a fraud. Tammy does nothing to stand out with here. Inventing voices of Jesus is an attention grabber. People must flock to you from around the world.

    Ah yes... I cannot keep up with all the flocking from around the world. *insert sarcasm emoticon* Come on, Band.

    It is hard to find the "historical Jesus" under the teachings of the Church.

    Well that should maybe tell you something... at the least that you should probably look at Christ... to know Him, and God. Not the church or men or scholars or historians, etc.

    One would imagine that the historical Jesus would mention you by name and address as the place to go for genuine Christian teaching in the last days. Yet not one gospels, canonical or otherwise, points the way to you.

    I don't think one would imagine such a thing at all.

    The gospels and prophets, etc... all point to Christ. So do I point to Christ.

    Immoral things are not immoral b/c you were not standing in the circumstances. How do you know God would not demand a sacrifice from you? What makes you so special?

    I know because I know Christ... and for all the other reasons that I have already listed in this thread. You can look at what is already in them.

    And yet again... I am NOT so special.

    You and others need to move past that. Because it is that thinking... that one must be special or good or perfect... in order to hear Christ and serve Him, that keeps people from even trying; that keeps people with their backs bent under the load (of guilt and lies) that man and religion has placed upon Him. That the wts loaded on you.

    But there is freedom in Christ. You don't have to be 'special or good or perfect' to hear and serve him. Thank God. You just have to have faith IN Him; that He IS alive; that He DOES speak; that He WILL answer you and grant you ears to hear if you ask for them; that He WILL keep his promise:

    "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teachings. My father will love him and we will come and make our home with him."

    That He IS calling to YOU when He and the Bride say,

    "Come... take the gift of the water of life... FREE!" Let him who wishes, "Come." Let him who hears also say, "Come."

    Peace to you as always,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    Can you please clarify for me... who killed the firstborns in Egypt? (by the way you accidentally said "peace, tammy" twice in your last post.)

    Death. Not the scythe and hood guy... but the entity, yes. The last enemy.

    (and yes, lol, I saw that... sometimes I go back and add or fix something, and then forget that it is already there)

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • adamah
    adamah

    TEC said- Still not a single one of you answers the question whether God had the right to answer the cries of those who were BEING raped/murdered/harmed... who cried out to God to save them from those killing them. Instead you are defending those who did the murdering/raping/blood-spilling.

    TEC: you dismissed the murder of Lot's wife, who was killed by God's hand for NOT following the contrived stipulations of the angels apparently to God's liking, committing the atrocity of looking back. Angels told her to jump, and she hesitated and/or disobeyed in a minor detail. But hey, there was nothing they could do. Accidents happen.

    You also dismissed the FACT that the two (soon-to-be) son-in-laws were actually offered salvation by the angels (after Lot was instructed by the angels to leave Sodom with all his relatives), but the account says the fiances dismissed the warning of Lot, as they thought Lot was kidding around or speaking in jest "as a mocker" (and Lot was actually serving in the role of a preacher of salvation at that point, but they apparently assumed Lot had been drinking again and couldn't take his warning seriously; in fact, the Hebrew idiom used in the account is associated with drunken or silly talk).

    So BOTH sons-in-law paid the price for Lot's lack of credibility and prior indulgences, which is ANOTHER subtle message of the account; it serves as a warning about how one's actions 24/7 directly effect one's credibility (somewhat analogous to the message of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"). Lot had NO CREDIBILITY, and his family members and wife died as a result, and NOT as punishment for rape/murders they had committed.

    The ONLY survivors due to Lot's warnings were his daughters, and we all know what happened next: drunken incest.

    So who will protest the killing of Lot's unnamed wife and his son-in laws, directly at God's hand? Weren't those three righteous people innocent of murdering/raping/bloodshed?

    Or is it OK to kill the innocent, since collateral damage is unavoidable, and is completely out of God's control?

    Keep those cognitive blinders on, TEC, and simply rejoice and bathe in the warm glow of your faith, which requires NO evidence; in fact, refusing to defend your beliefs is actually a SIGN of one's strong faith, per the Bible, since early Xians knew you cannot reason your way to such beliefs: that's WHY they're called "articles of FAITH".

    Adam

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Really?

    If I made this kind of comment to one of you, you'd be tearing your clothes, flailing your arms... how dare I bring your child into something like that, and make such a disgusting accusation against you. Well, I wouldn't make such a disgustingly personal comment... but it is no less disgusting coming out of your mouth. Especially as I already answered the question MANY times, to the opposite.

    I found the comment about God allowing "Death" to do His dirty work just as disgusting and insulting of everyone's intelligence. I only put the situation in modern context if someone were asked to do as Abraham was asked and applied your disgusting answer concerning the firstborn in Egypt.

    I think this thread is surviving so well because you do more for the cause of nonbelief than any of us can do.

    But Pharoah refused.

    Read the account again. Pharoah refused because [that bastard] didn't just take His people and leave like He could have (were He really that God). He hardened Pharoah's heart so Pharoah wouldn't let the people go, so He could kill and show off His power more.

  • zound
    zound

    Death. Not the scythe and hood guy... but the entity, yes. The last enemy.

    If death was to blame - then the firstborn would have lived a long life and simply died of old age. But their lives were cut short - death came early. Who caused death to come early to these people? Are you saying death has a mind of it's own?

  • zound
    zound

    Hey Tammy, could you please clarify what you meant by death being responsible not god?

  • LucidChimp
    LucidChimp

    "Hey Tammy, could you please clarify what you meant by death being responsible not god?"

    I agree with zound. You said:

    "Death. Not the scythe and hood guy... but the entity, yes. The last enemy."

    and

    "God did not kill them... He did allow Death to pass over Egypt"

    and

    "The debt that was owed to death you mean?

    Chirst did pay that... but God is not death."

    Kind of sounds like a personification... An entity who can be owed something and who can "pass over" Egypt killing kids? (I'm happy to be corrected if you'll clarify?)

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Why wasn't God also interested in the innocent S & G members who were raped by Jewish people? Where is he today as many members here struggle with severe illness? Jesus is also inconsistent with the ones he heals. Lazarus is raised. How about others as good as Lazarus or all the afflicted people who could make contact with Jesus. The early healing stories in the NT involve close physical proximity to the historical Jesus. Larazus raises the stakes.

    These stories are so culturally one sided. War crys of the Hebrew nation. It is good to see that most people reject these stories today. I will accept the Bible with modern higher criticism bc it is a standard text. Jesus whispering sweet nothings in my ear is breaking important God/human supplicant boundaries.

  • tec
    tec

    I just got home from work, and it is very late. I may not get to this until tomorrow. But I will come back to the thread.

    Zound, i had typed out a response for you, then my internet crashed, and I thought maybe instead i should just leave it as it was. But I will come back to this as I said tomorrow.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • zound
    zound

    Okay thanks. I had given up on an answer, but someone bumped the thread, so that's good.

    Regards.

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