Fallacies about Faith

by tec 340 Replies latest jw friends

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  Band on the Run

  This is what I do not understand about fundamentalism. The Bible stories are fairly well-known in our society. It is useful to know them even if you are not a believers b/c they are referenced in songs, literature, and art. The Bible is the background for so much of our civilization. How do you justify stories such as the Flood, Abraham and Isaac, the slaying of the Philistines, with nice things. Christ is truth. It is a meaningless statement. What does truth mean to you? Do contemporary morals and values have no place in your mind?

  How do we express indignation for slavery anywhere, the Nazis' death camps, the Khmer Rouge,, or North Korea and then turn around and believe that a God who condemns humanity b/c of the actions of a supposed Adam and Eve are fair or godly? My own morals condemn that God. I suffered agonizing pain for a long time in my life. Hospitals are full of cancer patients. Jesus' healing stories are nice reading. They are inspiring. If we believe even the Witness claims concerning Jesus, that he is an angel, why did he not heal everyone for all time? Animals eating other animals--it is savage.

  Jehovah has no merit. Why don't we proclaim this fact? These stories are gruesome. Yahweh is a god of a minor ethnic group. Why do people around the world celebrate YHWH? There is so much to condemn. When I was in great pain, I enjoyed reading the Psalms. Most believers read assigned Psalms. I read one after another. You have Psalms that describe the beauty of the universe in such elegant language. Next, you have will Psalms full of anger towards God. Where are you, God? I need you now. Please kill, kill, kill my enemies. They are not me. You are my personal God. My enemy does not worship you in the same way. Oh, destroy!" This is the folly of skipping around the Bible the most people do. When I am angry, I can understand the "Kill! Destroy! prayers as a primitive human reaction.

  I believe lectionaries are selective. We are diverted from deeply troubling scripture. Christ is truth is so simplistic. No, he shows such tenderness towards Mary as he dies on the cross. He makes certain John will care for her. Are we supposed to forget that earlier he states that he has come to divide families? I suggest grappling with the many hard questions that are preented in the Bible. It is not a unified book full of goodness and holiness. I refuse to abandon my moral core to believe in a literal application of these stories. Also, the Greeks and Romans found great comfort in what we call the Greek myths. Do we believe in Jewish and Christian myths? I believe we do. Every religion believes its world view is correct. A more global perspective helps.
• 

  PelicanBeach

  If we pick a wall and paint it white. If we randomly open a Gospel and randomly throw a small dart at any teaching in red (Christ's words in many Bibles).

  If we take red paint then write that teaching on the white wall. Repeat....until every randomly chosen red teaching in that Gospel is transferred to the wall in the same random order the dart found them. At the end of this little adventure the oral tradition passed on by the very early Christians is before our eyes.

  Afterwards it was written down to aid the memory and to teach others, later edited into stories, still later packaged and sold by others as inspired from the first word of that Gospel to the last.

  Then came the horn blowers who picked a piece here and there and loudly declared those pieces alone because that particular piece reflected their own hearts. And so, Repent Sinners!, Fires of Hell Await the Sinners!, Women Shutup! Burn Them When They Disagree!, and so on, were loudly proclaimed and forced upon the people. It continues in some Christian religions today.

  But not all Christians went along with this in the past and not all go along with it today, not all.

  God starts a process then he, with some course corrections along the way, lets it continue to its predictable end: Atheism the child of Christian hypocrisy. Christianity is getting its just reward.

  "Jesus Save Us From Your Followers!" is a valid request.

  Pelican
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  Im on my phone, so I cant copy and paste. To be just does not always mean to punish a crime. Justice covers clearing innocent people. Justice also considers all circumstances. extenuating and normal.
• 

  friendaroonie

  I love how smug and matter of fact the tone of tec's post is. And how kind and gentle and yet how firmly, like a parent to a child he sets all those dumb and ignorant atheists straight. This post. Actually makes me hate all theists. I am a theist but barely so and this post makes me ashamed to claim that label. Yet most atheists I have to say are just smarter in general than theists.I even think atheists are morally better than theists since they have better reasons for not raping little girls than god told me not to and or else I go to hell.so tec, thanks for being so supersmart as to make me want to trash what little faith I have. I hate that Imight actually get put in any of the same categories as you in some census. If you loved blue iI would hate blue, that is how ignorant I think you are.
• 

  tec

  Just got in from work and its late, so just a couple of quick things. I'll look more on this thread tomorrow and Monday.

  Think about it: suppose there were NINE (or even ONE) righteous men found in Sodom? Do you think they'd agree that Sodom's destruction at God's hand was "perfect justice" or "perfect mercy", since they were killed and their homes and businesses were destroyed despite their being righteous?

  If there were nine or even one righteous man found in Sodom, those nine or even one would have been led out... (providing they chose to listen and follow, but if they were righteous I do not see how they would not have obeyed)... not killed. There were not so many found, though.

  ...

  Friendaroonie... I don't even know what you are talking about or what you are taking issue with. I don't think for even a moment that atheists are dumb, or even dumber than theists, and I have never stated anything to that effect.

  Tec is a she, and not a he, btw.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  snare&racket

  Define righteous?

  Keep in mind that in that time, there wS no bible, there was no scripture, so it was IMPOSSIBLE to know about the god of the bible and his laws.

  if you chloose to accept that Sod & Gro existed, they were humans and no different to us in wants and needs. The bible god had not chosen the jews yet, he had chosen no nation, it was IMPOSSIBLE to be righteous by his standards. People forget that Jewish belief (very different to judeo christianity) is,a modern religion compared to the likes of belief systems alive back then, its all the people knew, COULD know.

  Lot survived because...... He was related to Abraham!

  Tec had you lived in Sod & Gro you would have died also....
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I don't bother to go that route- whether people were righteous in Sodom and Gomorah. Theists will inevitably say God knew they were unrighteous (wicked) in heart regardless of what God had done to provide rules and guidance. Theists will insist that even the children were corrupted there.

  I go on to more modern examples like Indonesia and Haiti. God provided inaction and did not save tens of thousands (maybe 100 thousand) children in the first example. They were swept away in an action He could easily have prevented, if he were there. And regardless of how you say God did not cause the event, it is an opportunity for people to show mercy and giving, God has a way of making it up to them in some afterlife kind of way, adults should not have been living on the coast of Indonesia to put their kids through that, YADDA YADDA YADDA, I say the price was too high to put children and parents through that.

  If God kills the unrighteous and their children, or if He stands by and lets them die, I don't even argue about them being unrighteous anymore. I just say He's a bastard unworthy of worship.
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  snare&racket

  Its true, lets ignore the question of his existence, lets say he exists,,... By his behaviour does he deserve to be imitated and worshipped? Feck no!
• 

  adamah

  TEC said-

  If there were nine or even one righteous man found in Sodom, those nine or even one would have been led out... (providing they chose to listen and follow, but if they were righteous I do not see how they would not have obeyed)... not killed. There were not so many found, though.

  TEC, I already explained the evolution of Judeo-Christian beliefs over the 500-600 yr period from contact with the Persian liberators (who followed Zoroasterian beliefs, which held that individuals stood before Ahuru Mazda after death), to the time when Jesus walked the Earth and showed a bit of that ancient communal responsibility for their failure to provide hospitality to his disciples, in Matthew 10:11-15 (parallel to Luke 10:5-12):

  Whenever you enter a town or village, find out who is worthy there and stay with them until you leave. As you enter the house, give it greetings. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come on it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your message, shake the dust off your feet as you leave that house or that town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!

  Here is Matthew 11:20-24, in which Jesus rebukes certain cities for not believing in him:

  Then Jesus began to criticize openly the cities in which he had done many of his miracles, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you! And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades! For if the miracles done among you had been done in Sodom, it would have continued to this day. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you!”

  Beyond that, I'm not going over it again just for you, since I don't think you'll 'get it' now just like you didn't before. I explained it in the article on my blog about Lot:

  http://awgue.weebly.com/article-pt-1-revisiting-sodom-was-lot-supposed-to-be-viewed-as-a-righteous-man.html

  That's not just MY whacky theory: it's a well-researched and understood topic which you too can learn but ONLY if "you have eyes to see, and ears to hear". It's also why God condemned the ENTIRE World in the Flood BEFORE he broke the news to Noah that he had won the lottery and would get to survive...

  The evolution of accountability can be seen shifting from communal towards individual throughout the OT, AND more importantly, the shift is confirmed by non-Biblical texts (other ancient writings). JWs still show vestiges of the earlier Jewish thinking of communal responsibility, but then shift to individual responsibility; it's still a mish-mash, where the blame isn't delineated (and that confusion allows for game-playing and pointing fingers).

  For a start, read Pamela Barmash's work, "Homocide in the Bible World", a Jewish lawyer and OT scholar who wrote extensively comparing the Torah's legal codes to other legal codes and cuneiform laws that existed in the ANE both before and after.

  So you can do some research on your own, or you can remain mired in your own fantasy, but just realize that's all it is: it's ALL only in your head, and your whacky hypothesis is ludicrious, since it flies in the face of the earlier 'bargaining' scene: if God could just lead the righteous men of Sodom out of harm's way, then why bother with the entire bargaining scene?

  Adam
• 

  tec

  Define righteous?

  Abraham was a righteous man. He believed and obeyed. He believed and obeyed what he HEARD.

  "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." Genesis 15:6

  Keep in mind that in that time, there wS no bible, there was no scripture, so it was IMPOSSIBLE to know about the god of the bible and his laws.

  I think you're making the point that I usually make... that God was known before the bible was written ; )

  Think Abraham for example.

  if you chloose to accept that Sod & Gro existed, they were humans and no different to us in wants and needs. The bible god had not chosen the jews yet, he had chosen no nation, it was IMPOSSIBLE to be righteous by his standards. People forget that Jewish belief (very different to judeo christianity) is,a modern religion compared to the likes of belief systems alive back then, its all the people knew, COULD know.

  Again, think Abraham; even Noah... also a righteous man, and this BEFORE the bible, before Abraham, before Israel.

  Remember also that God took notice of Sodom and Gomorrah... because of the outcry coming up to Him against them from other people. So it would not seem that Sodom and Gomorrah were simply doing what everyone else did.

  SLot survived because...... He was related to Abraham!

  Sure... but Lot also did what was right to the two angels, offering them shelter and protection, feeding them, etc.

  Tec had you lived in Sod & Gro you would have died also....

  Depending upon what was within me, shown by what I did.

  Peace,

  tammy