Am I wrong or right please clarify if you know

by Skeptical78 122 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jeffro

  billythekid46:

  However your assertion that your research is better than mine would be absurd.

  Actually, it's not absurd at all. Firstly, you seem to 'try' to 'make' the '70 years' 'fit' a particular purpose. Straight away, that's a big red flag. Secondly, that 'purpose' doesn't even agree with what is actually stated in the Bible. Thirdly, your timeline disagrees in relative terms with BM 21946 and ignores the evident difference in dating systems identified by the Babylonian interpolation at Jeremiah 52:28-30. My research requires no appeals to magical thinking and is consistent with mainstream scholarship on the matter, even though I arrived at it independently.

  I researched not just the works you speak of but others in connection with biblical events.

  As indicated by my use of "etc" in my previous response, I did not provide an exhaustive list of the sources I researched.

  I didn’t reply on anyone’s interpretation

  It's blatantly obvious that you relied on Ussher's interpretation.
• 

  billythekid46

  Interesting list. You didn’t mention Miller’s movement of 1844. 1874, 1878 was under Barbour bible students that later became Jehovah Witness under Rutherford. The Organization was going through better understanding as time progressed. However the date 1799 eludes me, please enlighten me on that. The understanding I took from this organization before I left, was they would seek a better understanding through God’s Spiritual help to a better understanding of the bible. Why keep the people in the dark or blind to better understanding than let’s say the Catholics faith that has been lying to their people since the 12 century or the Mormons with their story book, or Islam with their tale of the Prophet Muhammad. If you are going to criticize 1 religion, then include them all. You forgot 1913, 1917, 1929, but just like the rest. It’s a matter of interpretation of the reader, and of course let us not forget, the famous 1975 that none religious people like to throw at JW’s because people are so prefect that they cannot misunderstand the writing, but can easily crucify the messenger.
• 

  Jeffro

  billythekid46:

  You didn’t mention Miller’s movement of 1844

  Why would Miller's movement be included in a list of the Watch Tower Society's false predictions?

  1874, 1878 was under Barbour bible students that later became Jehovah Witness under Rutherford.

  Rutherford took over the Watch Tower Society in 1917. '1878' was abandoned in 1927. '1874' wasn't abandoned until 1933. Obviously this means that both were retained long after Russell's split with Barbour in 1879.

  However the date 1799 eludes me, please enlighten me on that.

  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_doctrine (source includes citations from Watch Tower Society publications):

  Miller had formulated doctrines drawn from Daniel 12:4,9 on the "time of the end", when the meaning of certain prophecies would be finally revealed. Russell made a slight amendment to the teaching, explaining that it began in 1799 when French general Berthier entered Rome, abolished papal government and established the Republic of Italy. The "time of the end" would last 115 years to 1914. The 1799 date, in turn, had been established by linking the 1260 days of Revelation 11:3 with time periods mentioned in Daniel 2, 7, and 12. Using the year-day principle, the period indicated 1260 years from 539 (when Justinian I recognised the pope as universal bishop) to 1799.

  1890: The "Time of the End" of Daniel 12:4 is identified as beginning in October 1799—when Napoleon invaded Egypt and ended the power of the papacy—and closing in 1914, at which point violent worldwide revolution would mark the end of the old world order and the beginning of a new one.

  1927: Identification of "time of the end" as a 115-year period from 1799 to 1914 discontinued. Final reference appeared in J. F. Rutherford's Creation (1927).

  1929: Beginning of "Time of the End" of Daniel 12:4 changed from 1799 to 1914.

  The understanding I took from this organization before I left

  From your implied defense of JWs' views about 1975 and your attempts to 'rescue' their claims about 1914 by trying to 'justify' 607, it seems that you still cling to various JW doctrines and that you haven't mentally left.
• 

  jwfacts

  Billythekid46, you are talking around in circles. Using your logic, nothing can be proven or disproven by anyone about anything. If that is the case, the Watchtower assertion that only a JW has truth and worthy of salvation is absurb, since that cannot be proven either.

  It's only when we start using dates obtained by some method outside the Bible that we can obtain a contradiction.

  That is hillarious, since the dates the Watchtower (and hence you) have been using are based almost entirely on methods outside the Bible. The Bible does not provide a timeline back to the destruction of Jerusalem, so you are totally dependant on historians to get there for a period of over 2500 years. Then in a stroke of contradiction, you claim you cannot trust them over a period of 20 years.

  You have made up your mind on what you want to believe, and ignore all information to the contrary. Time you step back on try to see the big picture.
• 

  Jeffro

  jwfacts:

  Then in a stroke of contradiction, you claim you cannot trust them over a period of 20 years.

  In fairness, billythekid46 isn't relying on the same 'twenty-year gap' that the Watch Tower Society asserts. Instead, billythekid46 tries to shoehorn a different event for 607 in order to use it as the same starting point used by the Watch Tower Society for a completely bogus numerological superstiton about 1914. In effect, billythekid46 asserts a two-year gap (607-605) during the Neo-Babylonian period instead, however, as already indicated previously in this thread, he's quite wrong.
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  smiddy

  I recently became aware of the new light. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this new light concerning 1914 means that the wt have been preaching the wrong doctrine for decades?

  To get back on topic : The simple short answer is YES the WT has been preaching the wrong doctrine for over 130 years . New light is an excuse for wrong predictions ,expectations ,prophecys ,running ahead ,being over zealous , etc.etc. Give yourself an education , ( I know the WT organization frowns on people being educated , I wonder why that is ) look up sites that use watchTtower publications such as JWfacts to read what they actually printed from their earliest times , the late 1880`s and if you are still a beleiver ? then i pity you.

  smiddy
• 

  Jeffro

  I've just noticed that billythekid46 pasted the same material on a thread 9 days ago. It is a copy-and-paste from http://www.berenddeboer.net/sab/dan/1.html.

  Being based on Ussher, it's a standard Protestant view. It is entirely unsurprising that it bears some similarity to the JW view that 607 must be 'special', because the Watch Tower Society got its initial biblical chronology from Ussher, including the false view that Jewish exile ended in 537 and that it lasted for 70 years—a distortion of what the Bible actually says about the 70 years.

  However, the Protestant 'biblical chronology' does not go on to attach the numerological superstitions regarding 1914 as used by the Watch Tower Society.
• 

  billythekid46

  First off, I like to thank you for your participation on this discussion in my behalf. You all have made my point on the fallacy and ignorance in man. First off, I stated in my first post that the WT is NOT THE ONLY RELIGION that accepts the 1914 rendering of events. *Jeffro* assumed that was my research when it was not, First mistake. Second mistake is not taking into account the differences in calendar years; Muslims themselves had different ways of counting seasons. Third the rendering or interpretation between Jubilee and Score. Finally the inference or claim that your research is the only logical truth and should be accepted because of your interpretation of facts and figures makes all of you wrong and false. When I conducted my research, I went in with an open mind, and I never claimed showing you my results as they to would be more in line with the WT, but thats for me to decide not you or the WT. You people speak of the truth, insult people that don’t agree with your truth, so that makes you people better. Like someone said in this post I pitty the fool that believes in your kind of truth. To read or hear something without misunderstanding its interpretation is human nature, you people just proved it 10 times fold because it suits you. Enjoy your life and be happy!!!!!
• 

  AnnOMaly

  It looks like our new 'friend,'

  Who may be 'billy' or 'Berend,'

  Prefers the KJV and Ussher,

  On both he is a gusher.

  But both are 17th century,

  And sometimes out from history,

  So billy's going to find,

  His chronology misaligned.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  *Jeffro* assumed that was my research when it was not, First mistake.

  I asked you whether it was your own research on the other thread and whether you were 'Berend.' You didn't answer. You said on this one that you have done the research from scratch. Easy to assume your copy and paste was your own work.

  If you copy and paste from someone else's work, it shows honesty and GOOD MANNERS to credit that person. Provide a link or name the researcher next time, please.