by Psychdigg 88 Replies latest jw friends
It must be troll watching season. The 'time of the end' is approaching?
Say Eman, nice pic of 'our 'arry' on the Nationwide site.
Cheers,
Ozzie
Pschicpigg, get off your Watchtower propaganda mindcontrolling, hypocritical soapbox. Anger is a positive thing when it is channeled into accomplishing something good. When the energy from anger is used in a direction to bring change for the good, that adrenalin is the positive work directing the one feeling the anger. Sure Bill Bowen must have an incredible amount of anger that has accumulated from over his many years in this punishing, shaming, guiltheaping, fear tactic, Publishing Corporation that is run by old tired narrowminded men who haven't a clue of what it is like to live outside the curtain of the Bethel walls. Kind of like Dorothy's little dog pulling away the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. It is an awakening to the reality of who is behind the all and powerful Oz-like geasers enforcing unattainable rules for everyone to live by. Thank God for people in history who brought about change from oppression because their anger from "righteous indignation" was the energy that kept them going. And I will through back into your face, Pychipigg, the same thing the haughty, pharasitical elders said to us. "He's just an imperfect man" and how do you not know that in all Bill's imperfection, that Jehovah is not channeling his anger through Bill Bowen. Even ancient Babylon was used to punish the wicked perverted Israelites in the days of the bible. I know first hand the dirty tactics the Watchtower Society used when dealing with our case against the pedophile pervert who molested our daughter and many other daughters in the circuit he served as a ministerial servent giving public talks. And don't think for a second Watchtower isn't going to start taking legal heat from those who were molested or who's children were molested because the pedophile used his "ministerial" position to gain their trust in luring them to his home. I hope Dateline gives the public a real picture that they see the real truth behind the ones coming to the door trying to recruit for the Watchtower Publishing God.[>:(]
Barbara Pandelo
So, Mr. PsychDig, lemme get this straight: (Yes, I know, I'm feeding the troll, but he got me all hot & bothered )
1. You cannot question the Organization.
2. Those who perform (1) will be spiritually executed (i.e. disfellowshipped).
3. You must "wait on Jehovah". Who is this "Jehovah"? I'm dead curious, seriously. Can you show me a picture? How is some supposed spirit entity going to help out the Organization? They're "spirit directed", aren't they? I FAIL TO SEE how a Governing Body that votes, yes, VOTES, on policy decisions that are responsible for the LIVES of many people is "spirit inspired" by a "God of Love".
4. Since you cannot question the Organization, what are you supposed to do? You will get spiritually executed if somebody sends a letter bearing your own forged signature that contains "doubts" about the Society's policies in it. Don't you think that's wonderful? Oh, and did I mention that this is the supposed Society of a "God of Love"?
5. If you send an anonymous letter to the Society, it will get placed in the trash. They only answer letters from people who's identity can be verified. What does this tell you? You know what it tells me? It tells me that the Society wants to know who these "questioners" are. Even your own little Book of Myths, the Bible itself, says that you must "make sure of all things" in the New Testament. DO NOT argue with me about the Bible - I've read it from cover to cover, TWICE. AND I have a pretty good memory of what I read. Don't even try.
6. Another lovely fact about your Organization is that you are not allowed to read anything written by Apostates. So, not only are you not allowed to question what happens in the upper layers of the Organizational structure, you may not read anything that might lead you to questioning the policies of the Watchtower in the first place. You see, this is a religion which turns mature adults into whimpering little children who have to rely on a book publishing company to decide what they CAN and CAN'T READ.
7. You wish to argue numbers with us. We're really glad about this, see. You have just instantaneously proven to us your lack of humanity and caring for your fellow human. If even ONE child is abused, and the person doing the abusing gets promoted, how can you possibly condone this? All that I can say for sure (not sure about Bill!) is that this THING has happened MORE THAN ONCE. For not seeing this, you have just gloriously condemned yourself.
I suppose I'll have to "wait on Jehovah" for an answer to this post. The reason I posted this is primarily to show lurkers and the other people on this site just how horrible Dubs can be when their distributed mind-meme is feeling threatened. It sees an end to it's existence, and responds with vitriol and diatribes (bad ones). Psych, we'll continue picking apart your every post until you either A) leave or B) recognise your utter lack of sensitivity and caring for fellow human beings.
Judging from your posts, you are a fully-integrated host of the Watchtower mind-meme. Congratulations. Your mind is now no longer your own. "Momma" in Brooklyn is going to decide what you can and can't do from now on. That's OK with us, really, we SUPPORT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, unlike certain other people we know *cough*, but really, don't try and force the meme on us, we've already rejected it. We are now immune, see?
Oh, BTW, you're dead. Seriously. According to the Watchtower, reading Apostate literature (this site being a prime example) is harmful to your eternal life in Paradise (TM). If the Elders ever manage to track you, oh faithful little Dub, down, from your postings on this site, you are sure as hell not going to see the New System...oh no...HAHA, a religion that kills off it's own defenders! Tremendous!
As I always like to say, the Watchtower's greatest enemy is the Watchtower. LOL.
"If men were like their personal ads, they wouldn't need personal ads."
Arachnia:
1. Since Bill Bowen behaves hypocritically THEREFORE he is a hypocrite. (That's my argument)
If that is indeed your argument, then support it without resorting to logical fallacies. You have failed to impress upon me how he is acting hypocritically. You have, however, used personal attacks and red herrings, which invalidate anything you have to say. Your approach seems to indicate that you have an interest in defending the WT Society. What is your interest in this matter? What's your angle? Why are you here attacking Bill's character and motivation?
2. Jehovah's Witnesses are a hot bed of child molestation. (Bills Argument)Do you contend that a problem does not exist?
Bill Bowen makes inuendos & spins scenarios of the percentage of JW's that are molesters. He has no absolute numbers. Are some who claim to be JW's molesters?. Yes. Is it as bad as Bill Bowen claims? Without hard evidence NO!!.Most assuredly, hard numbers would be helpful. But, like the situation with the Catholic church for so many years, those numbers are very difficult to ascertain because the church leaders are not willing to divulge them for fear of repercussions. However, Bill saw quite enough in terms of cases of pedophilia to motivate him to speak up about the issue, which gave others the courage to do so, and over time, more will continue to stand up. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The same sort of things were said for YEARS about the Catholic Church. There were naysayers such as yourself who said that either the victims were lying, suffering from false memories, or that they were simply isolated cases. It wasn't until the media got involved and spread the news, and lawsuits started being won by victims that the church started admitting numbers. You can see what has happened now.
I will not attempt to argue the numbers. However, I do know that *too many* children have suffered specifically because the WT Policy, and without people like those who have had the courage to protest the policy (Bill being amoungst that number, but not the only one) this issue would never come to light and children will continue to suffer. Gotthold Ephraim Lessing once said, "A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes." Choosing to remove the Watchtower veil of fear they have worn for so long has caused these good folks to see what is going on, not just in their own congregation, but organization wide, and they have the bravery to stand up and do something about it.
The controversial stance taken by these dissenting members is drawing focus and scrutiny on the WT organization, which attempts to defend itself by firing salvos in the way of personal attacks and threats of excommunication at anyone who would challenge their modus operandi.
"Being right too soon is socially unacceptable." --Robert Heinlein
The only reason you accept such false claims is because you are blinded by your hatred of the Watchtower organization.Ah, so now they are "false claims" are they? There is no such thing as pedophilia taking place in the Land of Oz is there? Nice try to sneak that in. Unfortunately, all too many of us know it is simply not true.
And as far as my personal feelings towards the Watchtower, any negativity I hold against that organization is a direct result of their actions, their policies, and the harm they have inflicted on their members for over a century. If you are a Watchtower representative, you have the ability to know of what I speak, but have chosen to ignore it. If you are simply someone who wandered in here without any knowledge of the Watchtower, then you have absolutely no right to preach to anyone here about our "hatred" of the Watchtower.
Cheers,
~arachnia
Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
-Kahlil Gibran
Simon:
In the US you have to have a search warrant issued to go snooping
into private records. Organizations (legal "entities") and
individuals have a right to privacy. What kind of an investigation
would you propose? Free rummaging through the Watchtower judicial
records? How do you protect the privacy of people who might be in
those records?
The fact is that there is absolutely no way to know for sure how
much of any kind of private activity is going on with members of
any organization. You can only go by public record ie. the legal
system. The numbers Bill Bowen tosses around are simply
propaganda. Individual cases no matter how dramatic and how much
press they get are simply anecdotal evidence. Do you know the
difference between anecdotal evidence and statistical data? Quack
cancer cures tend to be anecdotal evidence. Medical data is based
on large statistical samples. Bill Bowen's group only have
anecdotal evidence.
Does the existence of sinners in an Earthly organization mean that
God is not guiding it? Are you also naieve? Hopefully you can
answer your own question. Half of Jehovah's Witness marriages end
up in divorce (from my experience of 70 witness weddings in the
last 40 years that I have attended). That's identical to society
in general. Marriage doesn't do too well in spiritual paradise.
Does that mean God is not guiding the organization? It is easy to
make erroneous causal connections.
Now we come to your (and other dissenters) gleeful aim. The
Watchtower is about to get a "bloody nose". That is the real
intent of this process. There is an old saying "if you want to
beat a dog you can always find a stick". Soiling the reputation of
Jehovah's Witnesses is not going to make children safer. You need
to think about who has the main responsibility for the welfare of
their children. It comes down to the parents. Society has been
fighting prostitution for hundreds of years. It persists. (There
are an estimated 300,000 child prostitutes in the US alone) The
war on drugs is a dismal failure. You can stop some molesters but
our animal heritage keeps poking through our socialized veneer. I
personally would like to see a drama at assemblies about this
issue. Brother Peter Feelia trying to seduce a young boy on a
camping trip for example. That WOULD do some good!!!
There is an area where Jehovah's Witnesses fail to protect their
children - blood transfusions. This IS a horrible situation. This
is where the Watchtower is REALLY vulnerable because they are the
only religion with this bizarre interpretation of the scriptures.
The child molestation thing is a convenient distraction.
Psychdigg, your comments were directed to Simon, but as this is a public board and this discussion is as well:
The Catholic Church fell under scrutiny because of the victims and their advocates continuing to speak up in spite of being told that they had no credibility. Over time, people listen. Numbers come out. Lawsuits are won. It's all over the news. Regardless of whether records are public or private, in many states in the US it is now law that even in confidential relationships such as therapists, doctors, or clergy, if any evidence of child molestation has occured, that information cannot be kept private, it must be divulged to public officials so that it can be examined in light of the law.
How would you qualify the evidence being brought forth by the victims and their advocates in terms of anecdotal versus statistical? Whose authority would you accept in determining the statistics? Regardless of these labels, the fact remains - CHILDREN HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY MOLESTED. This has happened in the context of religion, and many of the perpetrators have not been held accountable, and continue to operate in an environment free from restraint, so that they certainly have the capability to abuse again.
As to the issue of religions being directed by god or not, it's an irrelevant argument from my standpoint. Another red herring. The issue here is child molestation, not the divorce rate of JW's. It is also not about the rate of drug use in the US, prostitution, or even the blood transfusion issue. It is about child molestation, and a religion permitting it to occur.
Finally, as for your contention that the parents are responsibile for what has happened to their children, your attempt to blame-shift away from the WT really tells me that you are working for their defense here. That's the typical response whenever the WT gets taken to task for something - shift the blame to individuals within the organization, whether that's local elders, congregations, or in this case, the parents. How dare you insinuate that the parents are to blame. The only thing they are to blame for is trying to act faithfully within the context of the brainwashing they've undergone in the name of religion. They are told that nothing as horrible as that could happen amongst "god's chosen people." They are taught to deny any sense of scrutiny they might have towards the organization because they are "the faithful and discreet slave" that god uses to "dispense spiritual food at the proper time." If you are a WT loyalist, deep down you *know* this. Fortunately, some parents woke up to see what was happening, and left so that their children will be protected.
By your argument, the best thing that parents can do to protect their children is to leave the JW religion to make them safe from pedophiles who will continue to persist. I must say, I agree with that, but I'm not sure that's the conclusion you are hoping people reach.
Again, what's your angle? What is driving you here to make the arguments that you have? You have obviously had at the very least association with the JW's, and its more likely that you are a long-time JW yourself due to the inferences you have made ("Half of Jehovah's Witness marriages end up in divorce (from my experience of 70 witness weddings in the last 40 years that I have attended"; "I
personally would like to see a drama at assemblies about this
issue." and the like) and the loyalty you have displayed towards the WT by attempting to silence its critics. What's your motivation?
Cheers,
~arachnia
Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
-Kahlil Gibran
Wouldn't the person who has a file on them (that would be every JW right?) have the right to read it?
Didn't they just do something in the UK where they have 10 days to produce the file if requested?
Don't you have a right to view your school file, credit file, irs file etc? or is the WT in the same class as the FBI and CIA. Surely they have sought ths status as well. LOL
Didn't they just do something in the UK where they have 10 days to produce the file if requested?
Yes. Basically for a fixed fee (£5-10 I think) you can get any information an organization has on you. This also includes CCTV footage. Mark Thomas even did a show on it. He got all the info that such orgs as MI5 etc had on him.
Ignored One.
Arachnia:
I am a "cultural" JW. You've heard of the distinction between an Orthodox Jew and a Cultural Jew? I look to the Watchtower because they are my "tribe".(3rd Generation JW going back to IBSA)
Scandal is a modern past time. I feel bad that the Catholic Church has to suffer from this kind of accusation. Religion serves a strong function in reminding people that they are MORE than animals. But the MORE part is simply a thin veneer over our evolutionary history. There is a tendency of JW's to blame war on religion. This only happens when nationalism grabs religion for its own aims.
When you discredit a religion you are doing untold damage to the moral compass of its members. In the case of child molestation this doesn't make people safer. It exposes them to the poison of relativism. It is unfortunate that Bowen's attack on JW's is a result of his JW training - which tends to be anti-philosophical. He lacks a broad context. The press is an all too willing player in this. The result is that children will NOT be measurably safer.
Children need to be educated to the dangers of molestation just as they are to the dangers of drugs. Some parents feel it robs kids of their youth if you educate them in the MO of sexual predators. Kids need to be taught that NO one ought to touch them in certain places. They need to be taught that they shouldn't look at dirty pictures etc. You will never get rid of the predators.
