Starting from a false Premise.

by Phizzy 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    Galaxie,

    You are new to the site like me. I have in other posts in the past answered questions similar to those you have put forward. Feel free to read all my posts on the matter to get a true picutre of why I believe as I do. Just click on my name and go to the top task bar and click on topics posted on. I have participated in a number of Atheist vs God threads and started a few myself.

    How about yourself, did you become an athiest after learning TTATT?

    Are you a former JW?

    Have you always been atheist?

    I know of JWs that have always been atheists, I always had a feeling this was the case and it was great when one actually told me he never really believed in God.

    Kate xx

  • cantleave
  • KateWild
    KateWild

    cantleave, I am not impressed with this illustration, why on earth would anyone imagine that puddles can think! Water is a facinating substance, the hydrogen bonds and the way they behave is truly impressive. But suffice to say bodies of water do not have brains therfore cannot think.

    But if we take a look at the water cycle that is evidence of God. Water is complex, marvelous and a joy to study.

    Puddles don't think

    Kate xx

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    Galaxie,

    I have noticed from one of your earlier posts you learned TTATT in the 60's at 15 when you had doubts.

    Did you really believe in God then but have doubts about WT? Or do you think growing up you were atheist and just got baptised to please family?

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    KateWild - "The only danger in this is they could jump out the fire into the frying pan and join anothe cult like the Mormons or even Hare Krishnas."

    I don't think this actually happens all that often; WT ideology actually does a pretty effective job inoculating its members against any other form of religious expression.

    Of course, (in retrospect) I think that it was motivated by a "if we can't have him/her then at least no one else can" mentality.

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    HI KATE , thanks fo reply and taking time to read my earlier post.

    I have read some of your posts ,in fact i once commented that i thought you were sitting on the fence re belief in god.

    probably because i sensed that you had issues with the bibles take on the xian god.

    being that is the source of the xian god prompted me to ask the question,which god do you believe in.

    Do you know? Is it a force (supenatural) who caused the existence of all we know. Does it exist because you

    need it to be that way for a reason?

    Although the belief may do you no discernible harm, not all harm is discernible as you may understand from my experience:....

    I suppose you could say i did believe in god from childhood but not due to my own reasoning.

    It was inculcated in me through religious education at school,church childrens study,vows of allegiance via church youth groups

    and subsequently the JWs from eleven years old. So being taught by adults,teachers,ministers how could a young mind question

    these influences, so although there seemed to be no discernible harm at the time the future was quite another story!

    Yes i was baptised at thirteen ,i cant say i was totally pressured because i was quite the little witness and wanted

    to do what jehovah wanted of me,although there was encouragement from my parents which i now realise

    was the main reason ie to please them.My mother in later years did admit she influenced me more than she perhaps

    should have.

    As i grew older my own reasoning abilities were kicking in mostly because i was a bit of a rebel and wanted to live life as i saw

    it best for me. Being a witness was proving to be a real drag. A couple of things happened about this time, my younger sister

    was molested by a brother of so called good standing nothing much was done about it, my memory recalls that he was

    talked to and that he was repentant .That got me thinking!!

    Another thing was my own studies and interests into history,archaeology,origins of life primarily because i liked to read

    encyclopedias ,books about dinosaurs and early man which all seemed to contradict the JW stuff via the bible so by my own reasoning

    (at last) i was able to formulate real doubt about god,JWs and have never regretted it for a second.

    To be free of all that NON...SENSE was liberating!

    My decisions of course to this day had and still have consequences .Hey thats another story.

    Best wishes to you.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    Galaxie thanks for a bit more info. It was interesting to read.

    I believe in God, but I don't believe he punishes or rewards people. Is he a Christian or Jewish or Buddist God? He is just God the creator, my daughter is 20, she has left WT and doesn't really have much time to think or talk about what she believes and my son is 12 and an atheist at the moment.

    His dad takes him to JW meetings he views may change but I doubt it, he also know TTATT.

    I don't push my beliefs on anyone but I enjoy talking about God, if I learn something that contradicts my beliefs I may change my view.

    Kate xx

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    Thanks Kate, yes I do believe you have god the creator, but I think he/ she / it? Is deeply rooted in your phsych.

    Transporting that to an actual entity (whatever that may be)is another matter.

    The things we see in the universe are objects of whatever, they are only evidence of the fact they exist.

    Not evidence of a creator unless we have a reason to see them that way.

    What is the reason you must see them as created ie purposely existing?

    They really have no significant bearing on your life apart from wonderment.

    Excluding warmth of the sun and tidal moon of course.

    Hey wait a minute that could be a reason for god to exist MMmmmmm

    No why would he need the bible if that's all it took LOL!

    best wishes.

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    Kate, it seems like you completely missed the point of Cantleave's illustration. The fundamental point of the illustration is exposing a flaw in the purposeful design argument advanced by creationists. Creationists always argue that the conditions were purposefully calibrated to support life. This is not necessarily true. It could be that life developed in the way it did because of the pre-existing conditions. In other words, the conditions weren't purposefully calibrated for the sake of life but rather, life as we know it developed because these conditions happen to exist on this planet.

    Think about it this way: We live in a vast universe with countless billions of planets with a wide variety of conditions. What are the odds that at least one planet out of the countless billions would happen to have the right conditions for organic, carbon based, water-dependent life as we know it to, to exist?

    Fundamentally, the arguments from incredulity advanced against abiogenesis and evolution are not in fact, absolute impossibilities. They are only seemingly unsurmountable odds that theists, through sophistry, would have us erroneously equate with impossibility. But great odds - no matter how great - are still an infinitely wide gap away from impossibility. Here's the thing theists conveniently ignore: the universe is vast enough, old enough and varied enough to overcome the seemingly unsurmountable odds. It's like a lottery. If you buy one lotto ticket and play the lottery once, it might seem virtually impossible for you to win because the odds of winning any single game are astronomical. (This is the kind of odds that theists use - the one shot in one game odds) But what if you are able to play the lottery multiple times a day every day of your life for billions of years? The odds of winning any single specific game is still astronomically small. But the odds that you would ever win at all thoughout your lifetime becomes very real. You have to multiply the astronomically low odds of winning a single specific game times the astronomically large number of games that you will play countless billions of times. (This is the kind of odds that theists conveniently ignore)

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    If you want to show someone TTATT, you need to start with the scriptures themselves. Not only are JW apologists "believers", they are " THE Believers!" You simply can't attack. You need to first make them see that they are not even following the ancient writings that they claim are the source of all truth.

    You gotta have some foreplay, just saying, " brace yourself" doesn't always work.

    DD

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