the bible and its prophecies

by Crazyguy 132 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Well, you can stop, but believers see the fulfillments in the writings of Moses, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Malachi, Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul and John and many others.

    The fulfillments made from the days of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob in terms of land and events. If you can look at the events playing out in the Middle East, the return of Judah, the building of the third temple, the hatred and resentments of those "round about" Israel, the Messianic prophecies and the rise and fall of empires, and are unable to see them for what they are, then there's little to debate. But whether you see them or believe them or not is completely irrelevant; they have been fulfilled, are being fulfilled and will be fulfilled as written by men of God.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Blimey, I had better get to my local Mormon Temple fast C.S !

    None of what you "see" is any more real than the wacky interpretations of Nostradamus' blatherings. All of those things you mention have long been debunked.

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    The problem with these interpretations is that Jesus said according to the bible which was written 30 or more after his death that he would return before his disciples finished preaching in Israel and john in revelations concurs when he said that Jesus would return so that those that pierced him would see him. Houston we have a problem.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Spot on Craxyguy - Jesus' entire ministry was predicated on his imminent parousia. He was a false prophet.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    And how have they been "debunked" because this is the first I've heard of it? I'm sure this information would be of special interest to biblical scholars from all religions.

    How were the prophecies of Judah's return to Jerusalem debunked? Or Isaiah's prophecy about Christ? Why did the Hebrews institute animal sacrifice, if not to presage the sacrifice of Christ? This practice, which found its way into the four corners of the earth, was even polluted to the point of human sacrifice, but how did sacrifice begin? Did God simply enjoy the shedding of the blood of animals? But the earliest documents we have show that animal sacrifice was a teaching device. A lamb without blemish is how Christ was described, and just as water baptism represented the burial and resurrection of Christ, animal sacrifice pointed the way to his sacrifice. It was supposed to teach the Jews; however, as Isaiah wrote, they went "beyond the mark" and by the time Jesus appeared, they had lost all of the meaning.

    I'd love to hear how biblical prophecies have all been debunked, and the reasoning behind that bold statement. The news is full of references to Israel, which the Lord, through Zechariah, said that in our day he would " make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. " Are you old enough to remember the 1968 war, or the war that happened when Israel was first established? I recall only the former, because in 1968 all the political pundits were writing that Israel was doomed. The nations round about gathered together to destroy Israel with overwhelming military superiority. What was accomplished in 1948 by an enormous military vicory over its neighbors -- dumb luck many thought -- would certainly not repeat itself. But in a surprise victory, Israel destroyed their enemies. Coming from the sea, Israel's warplanes caught the Egyptians completely off guard. Their air force was bombed before they could get off the ground and Egyptian soldiers left their sandals in the sand and fled for their lives, while the Israeli army moved south, painted Stars of David on the almost brand new tanks of the Egyptians, turned them around and used them against Egypt. They gained land to the north, south, east and west. The U.S. did not come to its aid, and after the war, negotiations began again; not for the existence of Israel but for the land it gained through a fantastic victory.

    But prophecy was with the Jews. No one can destroy them, nor can they wrest Jerusalem away because the prophets said the Lord would set his face against Israel's enemies and leave them in ruin. So I suppose you can debunk that. These prophecies, along with the others, are far more specific than Nostradamus could even dream about.

    And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come again st Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12)

    Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee. Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them. After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. (Ezekiel 38)

    These prophecies were written well before Christ, yet it speaks of him being "pierced" and Ezekiel even mentions the names of the nations that would, in the latter years, be arrayed against Israel. Every single nation that Ezekiel mentions is now an enemy of Israel, but they weren't in the days of the Greeks and Romans. How did Ezekiel know these nations would be Israel's enemies in our day? And how did Zechariah and Ezekiel know that Israel would be attacked and saved by miraculous events?

    .

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    I don't have all the answers yet Coldsteel, but one way to debunk many of the prophecies is to realize that many of the books may have been written much later than first surmised. Animal sacrifice goes back before Israel's existence for one, and I am finding out that many of the things the bible takes credit for were in fact things taken from other cultures. Example the name of god in Genesis EL, just a title meaning god right, but an older canaanite city name Ugarit had a god their supreme god and his name was EL. Their language almost the same as Hebrew, and this god was described in many of the ways that the israel god was described. Noah's flood hard pressed to think of an all knowing god to use this idea to kill humans, story of Gilgamesh and a couple of others found to be older. many scholars believe that a lot of the old testament was written or rewritten in Babylon during their exile. Only one piece of evidence identifying David existing and known of Solomon the greatest and richest king Israel supposedly had. No evidence of Jesus, all the books of the NT written or found date 150 AD or newer. Many of his teaching and life experiences mirror, mithras, Krishna, Buddha, etc. Haven't got all the details yet but studying the god El and what was said about him is very intriguing. I will be crossing all my T's and dotting all my I's before and make a final decision, but christianity has some issues in my opinion.

    Another piece of Info I have found but not confirmed is about Cyrus, In one of the books of the bible he is said to have given the credit to yahweh for his conquering Babylon yet according to what i have heard his own cuneiform stella says he gave the credit to Marduk. My days of believing one book to be inspired because one scripture says so, even though most if not all the NT wasn't even written of put together yet, are over.

  • kaik
    kaik

    It really does not matter what is written in NT because Jews do not believe that Jesus was messiah. Jews do not believe in Second Coming. Turkey did not exist during the OT it was populated by completely different nationality which was closer to present Indo-European ancestors and there were three different population exchanges. Whatever the map tries to make out, is a vivid imagination of the author.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Well, you can stop, but believers see the fulfillments in the writings of Moses, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Malachi, Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul and John and many others.

    Believers wear tin foil and buy 10,000 rounds of ammunition, too. Belief doesn't = true.

    There is not one example of a specific an unknowable prophecy coming true.

    And how have they been "debunked" because this is the first I've heard of it? I'm sure this information would be of special interest to biblical scholars from all religions.

    A variety of ways. If you are interested, google it.

    I'd love to hear how biblical prophecies have all been debunked, and the reasoning behind that bold statement.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies

  • kaik
    kaik

    Cold Steel again, you mixing different centuries, countries, cultures, and politics to fit your religious point. Majority of Jews in the 1st century lived outside Judea scattered along two major empires, Persian and Roman which were mutually antagonistic. Many Jews served in either state and some were even advisors of various Roman Emperors. So did Jews in Persian. Both were viewing other empire as an enemy. Majority of Jews during the life of Jesus never heard of him nor really were aware of his existence. Many Jews even deny that he ever existed and they will point you out into dozen various texts in the OT that Jesus did not fullfill biblical prophecies. Additionally, Jerusalem was not depopulated during Jewish war in 66-70, but only captured and devastated. Jews were expelled from Jerusalem in 135AD after the last major Jewish revolt, something that is usually conveniently ommitted by Christians. They were not allowed to return until Diocletian and Constantine reign 200 years later. Romans did not forbid Jewish worship in Jerusalem in 70AD and Jewish faith was accepted as official religion of the empire since the time of Roman Republic as were many other faiths in the Roman Empire.

    Any case, I do not want to engage in proselyting attempt and proof and reconfirmation of your points. I had studied with rabbi and I married to Orthodox Jew to know NT is nonsense from Jewish point of view, so whatever is written in 2. Thess, Matthew, or Revelation was rather meaninless to ancient Jews and is meaningless to present citizenry of the state of Israel.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Every single nation that Ezekiel mentions is now an enemy of Israel, but they weren't in the days of the Greeks and Romans.

    Wrong. Persia isn't a nation at all and Ethiopia is not, in fact, they have a population that claim to be the true Israelites.

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