Yeah in the time of Ezekiel, Rome was just becoming city republic fighting Etruskans and Sammians in Italy, and Greeks were figuring out how to beat up Persian invasion of their mainland. It was well 100 years before the golden age of Athens, before Peloponese Wars, age of Pericles....
the bible and its prophecies
by Crazyguy 132 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Cold Steel
Kaik: Cold Steel again, you mixing different centuries, countries, cultures, and politics to fit your religious point. Majority of Jews in the 1st century lived outside Judea scattered along two major empires, Persian and Roman which were mutually antagonistic. Many Jews served in either state and some were even advisors of various Roman Emperors. So did Jews in [Persia]. Both were viewing [the] other empire as an enemy. [The] majority of Jews during the life of Jesus never heard of him nor really were aware of his existence.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but it’s not accurate. In the first century, there were many tens of thousands of people living in Palestine, enough to launch a full scale revolution against Rome that required three Roman legions to quell. As for the “majority of Jews during the life of Jesus never heard of him” argument, I’d be most interested in knowing where you get your information. In the Passover celebration just prior to his crucifixion, Jesus entered the city, riding on an ass in fulfillment of prophecy. And the Romans were concerned enough about him that they crucified him.
As for location of the countries, of course on has to do a conversion. On the Roman’s Eastern front was Parthia, which is part of modern day Iran. Prophecy scholar Joel Richardson, author of two very illuminating books on the battle of Armageddon, writes:
I encourage you to open your Bible and read through all of Ezekiel chapter thirty-eight slowly. The specificity with which Ezekiel describes modern-day Israel is quite astonishing. Prophesying to the Antichrist, Ezekiel says, “In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate.” Israel is described as “the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods.” Clearly Ezekiel was describing the Israel of today.
So Ezekiel gives us the specific names of countries that will be involved in the invasion of Israel led by Gog. Listed in order, they are Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah, as well as “many nations with you.” (Richardson, The Islamic Antichrist: The Shocking Truth about the Real Nature of the Beast (p. 83).
The answer is obvious. Do a simple conversion of nations then and now. Also, keep in mind that anciently, the Bible was Jerusalem-centric. It did not concern itself with Rome, Europe, the United States or China. So people looking for the Antichrist to come out of the European Union are going to be disappointed.
Prophecy isn’t all that difficult to understand. It’s easy to construct straw men to knock down when one adopts a certain world view and an arbitrary eschatology that’s based on fantasy.
Kaik: Any case, I do not want to engage in proselyting attempt and proof and reconfirmation of your points. I had studied with rabbi and I married to Orthodox Jew to know NT is nonsense from Jewish point of view, so whatever is written in 2 Thess., Matthew, or Revelation was rather meaningless to ancient Jews and is meaningless to present citizenry of the state of Israel.
Interesting, since both the Old Testament and New Testament condemns the Jews of the last days as being a stiff-necked and wicked people. One of the reasons the Lord saves Judah during the conclusion of the battle of Armageddon is to reclaim them.
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel. (Ezekiel 39:7)
Also:
Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land...neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God. (verses 28-29)
These two chapters, 38-39, are two of the most remarkable passages in the Old Testament. The Lord acknowledges that Judah had sinned, and for that reason he scattered them throughout the nations. But now he’s gathering them back, and yet he’s bringing their enemies against them so that they will turn to him. In Revelation 11, where John speaks of the two prophets who will be raised up to defend the Jews from the “beast,” he describes their deaths. “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”
He thus speaks of Jerusalem (where Jesus was crucified) as being “spiritually...called Sodom and Egypt.” This one reference tells us two things: 1) that the Jews of Jerusalem will not be righteous, and 2) that Jerusalem is literal. After all, how can it be “spiritually” called Sodom and Egypt? In other words, the apostle rules out any chance of Jerusalem figuratively being any other city or place by specifically telling us that it’s where the Lord was crucified. And because Jerusalem will abide in iniquity in the last days, the Lord will allow the beast to destroy much of the city and kill many of its population.
Viviane: Wrong. Persia isn't a nation at all and Ethiopia is not, in fact, they have a population that claim to be the true Israelites.
Persia is now Iran, and the Jews of Ethiopia are not a threat to the Jews in Jerusalem. The Muslims, however, are. As Ezekiel writes, the people of Israel will be at peace when the enemy attacks: “In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years [ago] that I would bring thee against them?”
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses spiritualizes the entire passage, likening Israel unto themselves. But the Lord specifically mentions it will be in the latter days, that the enemy will come from the north, that they will come against his land and that his servants the prophets of Israel had prophesied of his coming. The reason it can’t be applicable to the Jehovah’s Witnesses is that they have no land. The enemy can’t come from the “north parts” like a cloud and, finally, many of God’s prophets had prophesied of it. It’s true that there will be a battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennium; however, it will be a different battle completely — where the wicked see themselves as fighting the same battle again. But none of the ancient prophets of Israel ever prophesied about that battle save John. And Ezekiel specifically writes that it will take the people of the region, the survivors, seven years to burn their weapons and to bury Gog’s bodies. Also, it would happen in the “latter days” (which is our day, not the end of the Millennium). The first Gog/Magog battle will take 42 months; however, the battle at the end of the Millennium will be over much faster and no one will have to burn weapons or bury bodies.
Again, prophecy is clearly headed in the right direction. In 1830, the Jews were not a nation and Zionism was not even a concept. By 1870, however, that had changed; and at the end of World War II, the British and other powers turned over the keys to the Jews. Soon trees were planted, communities sprung up, colonization started, the Israelis developed a first rate military and intelligence network. The land blossomed like a rose under the leadership of the Jews and they successfully defended themselves against all odds. So do you really think this was all done by chance, and that the fulfillment of ancient prophecy was, instead, simply a coincidence.
Kaik: Yeah in the time of Ezekiel, Rome was just becoming city republic fighting Etruscans and Sumerians in Italy, and Greeks were figuring out how to beat up Persian invasion of their mainland. It was well 100 years before the golden age of Athens, before Peloponnesian Wars, age of Pericles....
I think you have some of your times and cultures mixed up a bit, but what’s your point? I’m an admirer of both Greece and Rome, but Israel had its golden age as well during David and Solomon, and its culture was nothing to turn your nose up to. The Law of Moses is an astounding form of government for its time. It was eminently just and in many ways superior to what the Greeks and Romans produced in the way of rights and compassion.
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strypes
Howde Coldsteel! I enjoyed reading your post.
Cofty, good to see you too.
This thread is quite amusing. So many "experts" that are totally clueless.
Psalm 81:3...
"Blow the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed on our solemn feast day"...
1 Corinthians 15:52...
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump, For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh0GqW0Ak3k
a little something for them that have ears to hear...
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Crazyguy
I wonder how many blood moon event like the ones were about to have have happen between the years 70 ce until 1948?
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Viviane
Persia is now Iran, and the Jews of Ethiopia are not a threat to the Jews in Jerusalem. The Muslims, however, are.
So? The Bible said Persia, not Iran, so it's not right. Islam is not the most religion in Ethiopia and, even if they were, that means the people that don't like Israel are a threat, not Ethiopia as a nation, so, again, not correct.
This thread is quite amusing. So many "experts" that are totally clueless.
Spot on.
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strypes
Crazyguy..
Prior to 1948 the most recent was 1492... The year jews were expelled from Spain.
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Viviane
Or, you know, in 1949 -1950 and 1967 - 1968.
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Cold Steel
Strypes: A little something for them that have ears to hear...
The fellow you referenced in the video above says he’s convinced what he says is painfully obvious, but I’m mighty skeptical about the “pre-trib rapture.” Having studied prophecy for years, I’ve never been able to see it anywhere in either the Old or New Testaments. The pre-tribbers also see the Beast as ruling in every nation of the earth, which is essentially what the Bible says; however, in other prophecies where prophets use the exact same hyperbole, it just didn’t hold true. Daniel, for instance, used it in reference to some of the empires that would arise, but he didn’t include the kingdoms in China, India or Mesoamerica. In the same respect, I do not believe that the Beast’s sway will include the Western Hemisphere, which is worlds away.
Also, regarding the Dome of the Rock, the scriptures frequently speak of a great earthquake. If the sixth seal earthquake topples the mosque, I can’t help but think the Jews would see this as a sign from God to build their new temple. As for videos, here’s one for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTPEeptb3jY&feature=player_embedded
Viviane: So? The Bible said Persia, not Iran, so it's not right. Islam is not the most religion in Ethiopia and, even if they were, that means the people that don't like Israel are a threat, not Ethiopia as a nation, so, again, not correct.
I’m not concerned with Ethiopia. I am concerned with the other lands, like Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Jordon, Syria and the other nations in the region. If Ethiopia goes against Israel, it will be because it was conquered and repopulated with Muslims. The point is, this will be an all out Muslim war of Esau against Jacob. As for your views that the Bible didn’t use the modern use of nations, and are thus not valid prophecies is absurd. The prophecies will come to pass whether you believe them to be incorrect or not.
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strypes
Luke 21: 36 " Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
Pray for "pre" prepare for "post" ??? ...
I place my trust in Jesus and knowing Him. I know that because of my faith in Jesus I will be with Him when the wrath of judgement comes. Hidden with Him as a bride in the wedding chamber. It will be the foolish ones that find the door closed because they were not ready when the Bridegroom came for His Bride. We are not appointed unto wrath who have been born again of the Holy Spirit of God. Tiz True...
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cofty
Jesus was a false prophet and a cult leader. He enticed men to abandon their wives, children and businesses based on false promises about his imminent parousia.
2000 years on and gullible people still think he was right after all.