An important difference between atheists and true believers (page 8)

Still Totally ADD

James Brown, It could be the Ex-JW's who have become atheists still cannot get out of the I am right thinking that was beaten into them while a JW. It takes time for all of us to get out of that thinking. I don't believe in anything but sometimes I fall into that trap of trying to convince someone that I am right. The one thing that does hold us together is we all know that Wt. is a cult if not a cult their teachings are all wrong or whatever. LOL The point is just give them all time and ask for proof if you want to debate them on the subject. Still Totally ADD

Apognophos

I don't think you can take a believer on this forum and make that person an atheist what we can do is have honest conversations, talk about stuff we know something about and not make up crap.

Yes, and yet it's difficult for someone to start a topic on here about religion without the thread getting overrun by mocking comments from nonbelievers. Perhaps it's not just fervor for what someone believes in at the moment, but also a lack of respect for others' beliefs that's the issue.

The idea that "I can respect you while I mock your most treasured beliefs" is bull hockey. Either you take two seconds to actually empathize with the person and realize that they have deep-seated reasons for their beliefs, or you have no right to claim that you respect them while you post mocking comments.

cofty

The key thing is the transition from valuing faith to valuing evidence.

Once you do that everything changes.

You no longer have to persuade others about anything, just keep giving them the facts. They will either love you for it or hate you for it - either way is fine.

Apognophos

Just to be clear, you're not necessarily one of the mockers I'm referring to, cofty. I think your tone is usually respectful except when you call God a moral monster (the question is not whether that's true, but whether there are more effective ways to put it). But there are others here who are extremely untactful and seem to feel that it is open season on people with faith; religious threads are just fodder for "lulz" for them.

Part of this comes down to a moderation issue. Most forums I've been on are stricter about enforcing etiquette and will warn, then temp ban, then perma-ban people who make rude posts. Moderation here is either conducted in the most inconspicuous manner I've ever seen, or someone is asleep at the wheel.

Hortensia

so, was my post rude or just an honest report of my feelings?

I see everyone started playing their tapes. Conversation on this forum is often not much different than conversation with some of the whackdoodles who live around here and believe there are invisible doorways that gypsies use to escape the police. A favorite comment of many around here is, "well, that's just YOUR reality. I have my own reality." WTF? How can you have any discussion with folks who believe reality isn't real? They are enchanted with their ideas, which is OK, but living as though those fantasies are in fact true makes them a bit crazy. Lots of people are enchanted with their religious ideas, too, but they don't seem to care whether the foundation is real or can be proven.

The only one who challenged what I said in an interesting way was Laika.

I don't much care what other people believe. I just don't want to listen to it very much.

DJS

Hortensia,

I think your views are spot on. As I've pointed out many times on this forum, as an athiest I never engage anyone in theistic or belief discussions when away from this site. Ever. This site is different; we come here to engage one another. I doubt if any of the other atheists on this site proactively engage any theists as well. I know lots of atheists and we keep that stuff to ourselves, partially out of respect for theists by primarily because we put that stuff to bed a long time ago and we simply don't waste our precious energy and gray matter on it.

My own rules of engagement on this site: First, I don't enter clearly theist/JW specific discussions. It is rude and disrespectful and a complete waste of time. Theism is irrational. It is only one step higher on the evolutionary scale for sentient beings than feelings. I won't tell any of the other atheists what to do, but it would likely tone down the rhetoric if atheists stayed out of clearly theist discussions (I mean, really, do we atheists have any desire to discuss scripture, the GB, the WT, OKM, Cross pollinating generations or whatever the hell they call it these days?). These things nauseate me and they comprise the vast majority of topics on this site.

Second, theists should show the same respect and restraint. Try not to enter scientific, economic, etc. discussions with nothing more than theist mantras, feelings and beliefs. That annoys the hell out of me. Bring facts or stay out of it. Most theists respect this.

Third, I don't post on topics for which I'm not a SME. That alone would solve a lot of issues on this site if others followed the same.

Finally, each discussion should be considered a debate. The rules of debating are essentially: a. facts; and b. the correct application/interpretation of facts. Facts it seems are vewy scawwy to theists. When the topic isn't theism, which is as stated highly irrational in the first place, facts are the only things that matter. No one, certainly not me, gives a rip about someone's feelings, beliefs, thoughts or one dimensional 'knowledge.' We get a LOT of that on ths site. So many rush to find the first article that supports their reactionary, emotional, irrational and intellectually lazy viewpoint rather than study the subject matter on a 360 degree basis before posting. Too many are intent on winning arguments rather than learning something.

Among other things, I've been an adjunct professor (2 collleges and lots of different subjects). One of the subjects I taught was analytical research and writing. My students knew that any definitive statement that wasn't supported by empirical data on a 360 basis (both supporting and not supporting their view/thesis) was going to be red-lined. Too many on this site think that their cherished feelings or beliefs are worthy of typing crap into the keyboard. They are mistaken. And I 'see" red whenever one of the theists makes definitive statements (typically about atheists) which are completely false and totally un-supported by the data. I guess they 'feel' and 'believe' the crap they sometimes post. It seems anathema to them to actually support defnitive statements with empirical data.

I don't post on many of the scientific discussions. Cofty, Snare and Viviane are much more capable than I.

zed is dead

I am not anti-religion, or anti-evolution. I am just anti-prick.

Hi cofty!

zed

Frazzled UBM

Hortensia - you seem to be an ultra-rationalist to the point that it is almost an ideology. While skepticism is very important to analyse and identify BS, that only takes you so far. But underlying every set of beliefs, even scientific ones, is a set of value judgements. Have you studied the Philosophy of Science? This shows that there are different conceptions of Scientific Truth - the Popperian Falsification theory and Kuhn's Paradigm theory are two examples. There are limits to Science - we don't know what we don't know. So Science is a useful tool for understanding the universe and has generally served us well but it does not and cannot provide all the answers. The theoretical construct that is used to identify relevant and irrelevant facts means that by definition it is a selective truth. Those theoretical constructs themselves involve value judgements. Most rational arguments break down at the point of difference in value judgements - it is generally at this point that the argument descends to name calling. So your skepticism is to be applauded but your apparent absolute certainty in the correctness of your position is not. Embracing uncertainty and having the humility to realise that there is much we don't know and can never know and that we can learn from others who have different viewpoints, including those with religious beliefs, is critical to personal growth. Cheers Fraz

cofty

You are the one making childish insults Zed not me.

James Brown

One of my neighbors at the dinner table told me of some miracle herb that "cures everything. Destroys every bad thing in your body." I try not to be controversial at what is meant to be a pleasant occasion, but I wanted to say things like, "then why are you still sick?" "Hmmm, why haven't the pharmacies gotten hold of that one?"

Hortensia:

A little off topic, But it is your topic and you made the statement above.

Don't you know most Americans illness, especially those who watch televison and read mass media

are psychosomatic. Up to 75% of peoples illnesses are in their head.

So there is a big market for a herb that cures everything.

39% of the time placebos work.

An important difference between atheists and true believers

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