Thats right abe AMEN. THeseperation of knowing about Christ in a book and knowing him personally is taking place, those who are surrendering to the living word are stepping out of the shadows and the churches to be set free from mans ways to be taught by him alone. In him aloneyou will find rest not in a religion or church, he doe snotdwell in man made structures or temples, he dwells in you
Losing Faith in Faith..
by Dis-Member 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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braincleaned
I'm am sad when I see JW go from one religion to just another. There is no God.
At least not the God as we know it, and science has debunked every single claim in the Bible...
Reality and mortality is too scary for some... alas.
Here is an article about that:
http://vincedeporter.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/cant-prove-a-negative-think-again/ -
givemejustalittlemoretime
Science cannot debunk faith, it cannot be measured, the revealtion of Jesus Christ within cannot be measured either
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Maranatha
Hi there. I have quite a bit to say on the matter, Dis-Member. :) I hope you have to time to read it all! I will do my best to answer each of your posts.
“The Bible can be used to prove just about anything you like.”
True. But if you diligently search it yourself and pray to God for understanding, you will know what is truth and what is the lie. Scripture interprets Scripture.
“"God is not the author of confusion". Can you think of a single book that's caused more confusion than the Bible? What is literal and what is metaphorical? Everyone thinks that they have the right way and they all disagree with each other. And Jesus does not return and God is silent for thousands of years and never shows himself.”The only Way is Jesus. He declared this Himself (John 14:6). Any other way is false. And any other Jesus is false. Jesus will return, friend. Do not fret. Remember, “a thousand years is as a day to God”. ;-) Also, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4) He has revealed Himself through His creation and His Word. Men are without excuse. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." (Rom 1:20)
“How on earth are we meant to believe in any of it? Faith based upon nothing is madness.”
Key Scriptures: Heb 11:1, James 1:3, Gal 5:22, Rom 10:17
Heb 12:22 tells us that our faith is in Jesus not in nothing! 1 Pet 1:5-9, 1 John 5:4, 1 Cor 2:5
“If I am honest with myself the whole idea of a non-provable faith in anything is seeming more and more to me like believing in fairy stories. I personally can not prove a single thing of what I believe. I can't even defend it. What business do I have in believing it in the first place then? Merely saying 'because the Bible says so' is no longer enough as we already know they Bible can say anything you want it to.”You cannot defend it because the Watchtower has preached lies to you. All Watchtower doctrine can easily be refuted with Scriptures by those who study it diligently and not waste time studying a bunch of magazines and books.
“I also can not prove that the Bible is anything more than an old book that not a single person in history has ever understood. How can I ever possibly hope to.”I understand it. And many others like me. We are few and far between. The key to understand is to “search the Scriptures daily” and “meditate on God's word day and night”. Ask God for the answers you seek. The Bible has stood the test of time. Many have tried to destroy it. But like the hammer on the anvil, the hammer (nay-sayers) wears away but the anvil (the Bible) still stands!
"Let's be honest here.. there simply is no verifiable testabable evidenece for a God.. if there was someone would have won the nobel prize by now."
Life. Life is more than enough proof for the existence of God. The amoeba-to-man theory of evolution is impossible. All processes within plants, animals and humans would have to have been there from the BEGINNING in order for life to begin and sustain itself. It did not go through “trial and error” phases or random mutations until the right process correlated with the others. If that happened then life would have died out years ago.
“He also discusses the hypocrisy and insincerity of acting like you believe something when you don't. (ie: attendance and participation at meetings and ministry) Something very many in here do and have done for years.”Agreed. You know what else is hypocritical? Preaching your unbelief in something or someone. Having conferences based on this unbelief. Even having a “bible” based on this unbelief. I'm talking about the atheists, here. :P
“The Bible speaks of many men of old that had this wonderful illusive faith which are meant to inspire us. But of course they did! They saw fire a lightning come from the sky, they heard the thunderous voice of God from the heavens, they saw countless vast enemy armies vanquished with miraculous supernatural forces and whole cities swallowed with with fire and brimstone right before their eyes. Of course they would then have faith after experiencing such things if true.”
What about the men and women of the Bible and of today who have not had “in your face” experiences but still believe? And this belief is counted as righteous. Some of them did not have a “sign” from God. And for some, their “sign” came after they first believed. Examples of the faithful: Esther, Ruth (She was a Moabite but she stayed with Noami and believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And God rewarded her for her faith by making her a part of the Messianic bloodline. Ruth married Boaz. Ruth is the great-grandmother of King David.), Rahab (She was a prostitute before she became a part of the Messianic line. By faith she believed the spies who came to Jericho and it was this faith that saved her and her family. Her faith was confirmed when the walls of Jericho came down.)
“Later according to the same Bible in Jesus time people had faith only and because they saw him perform countless impossible miracles and bend the laws of nature.”
And what about those who had God within their very midst but still denied Him, doubted Him or turned away from Him?
The nation of Israel is a fine example. Even Pharoah denied God during the plagues. And Sarah did not believe she would have a son. She laughed at God. Judas walked with Jesus and still betrayed Him! Other examples: Gideon, Jacob, Peter, Eve.
"People in those times prayed to God and often got an unmistakable response from him in less than 5 minutes. People today can pray for 50 years and have no response what so ever."
Not true! I've had plenty of answered prayers! God is not bound by time like we are. So we may get discouraged when God doesn't answer right away. There are several reasons why God doesn't answer sometimes. It could be that you have still unresolved sins and you haven't humble yourself before the Lord and sought His forgiveness. Or maybe you are holding a grudge against someone and need to forgive them? Or maybe it's just not time yet? Or you are asking for selfish reasons? Or God says no because the outcome wouldn't be want you expected it to be? And we are to pray without ceasing. And sometimes fasting is required.
Sometimes God does not always use thunder, lightening or fire form Heaven to get one's attention. Remember Elijah. “And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.” 1 Kings 19:11-12 Elijah also prayed seven times before his prayer was answered (1 Kings 18). Abraham waited 25 years before God fulfilled His promise of a son.
Maybe you are listening for the wrong thing? Or maybe you've received your answer and it's not to your liking? Or maybe you've received your answer and you just don't realize it yet? Try listening for a whipser instead of a shout. :)
“God was seemingly far more friendly and sociable back then and liked humans more making several of them his 'friend'.”
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith theLord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. Jeremiah 23:23-24
You too can be God's friend. The answer lies in Jesus. :) "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you". John 15:13-15
“I'm sure if any of us today saw or experienced a single iota of this we would have the most unbendable and unbreakable and valid faith. But we don't.”
You speak for yourself. My faith cannot be shaken!
"In fact no human has experienced any direct interaction what so ever with God for over 2,000 years. We instead are told that we must have this same unbendable, unbreakable faith based on mere stories, legends, fables, parables passed down in copied, translated, manipulated, twisted, even possibly fabricated untrustworthy and unreliable documents written in languages we can not read and the veracity of which too can never ever be proven."
We no longer have the direct interactions as in the Bible because the Bible is complete. It is sufficient. All that remains to be fulfilled is the book of Revelation and the prophecies concerning the Antichrist."This is a form of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 20th, and even a hundredth hand faith. Faith in the story of the faith of another person is not real faith."
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God. ~Romans 10:17"We are then also told in that same Bible and by those that promote it that of we do not have this faith we are utterly rejected by God. Apparently to be acceptable to God, it is necessary for one to exercise faith in Jesus Christ, and this makes possible a righteous standing with God. (Ga 2:16) Those lacking such faith are rejected by God.—Joh 3:36; compare Heb 11:6."
Correct. :) And why not have faith in the One who created all things? Having faith in Him is an act of Love."The men that wrote that either knew or had a real and personal experience of God and Jesus so it was easy for them to say and write such things. No one in 2,000 years has had any such real experience."
I believe I covered this in an above response.
"It seems that to have a real faith today in an uncontactable God and a 2,000 year absent Jesus is a physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual impossibility."
You are not alone. God is here. Just open your heart to Him. If you cannot feel Him then it is by your own doing. Do not harden your heart to the Lord. Jesus is not absent. In fact, the signs of His soon return are upon us. Examples: Israel becoming a new nation, God bringing the Jews back to their homeland, the desolate nation of Israel blooming once again, the world's hatred of Israel, the moral decline in our society (especially violence and homosexuality, a.k.a, the days of Noah and of Lot), the weather going from one extreme to another, the blasphemy that is all over the media, the falling away from the faith, the gospel being preached to all nations, the world's leaders trying to set up a one world government, religion, and economy; famine, earthquakes and pestilences. Now I know that some of you may say, “this stuff has been going on for ages”. True. So what's the difference with our generation? All of these things are happening at once with an increase in occurrence and intensity. “The whole of creation groaneth as a woman in travail”. Just as a pregnant woman about to give birth, her contractions become more frequent and increase in intensity. Rom 8:22, 1 Thess 5:3
“What is needed to have genuine faith then is not the study of some dusty old antiquated parchments housed in the British Museum or the Vatican Library but rather for the living God to actually unmistakably do something in our lives today, right now to inspire and foster such faith. Without this there can be no surprise that the world is in utter and total confusion as to the existence, identity, nature and will of God.
It's not my intention to be unduly critical of the Bible and those that believe in it unequivocally.. (how can I criticize what I can not prove or even comprehend?). I'm just sad and confused that I have so very little if anything at all to build my faith upon. My study and experience of the Orgites has left my faith all but completely demolished and in tatters. I am left with nothing but total uncertainty.
I'm tired and weary of books and writings of the words of men claiming to be truth on any matter at all when there are as many different truths as there are people on earth.”You may think that, but God declares that you do in fact need His Word, the Bible. Without it you cannot understand Him.
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. ~1 Tim 3:16,17
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. ~Psalm 119:105
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’" ~Matt 4:4
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. ~Josh 1:8
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. ~Rom 15:4
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. ~Heb 4:12
And many other Scriptures I could show you.
"Really not sure where to go from here. I have reached a dead end."
It is usually at this dead end where many finally come to know God. They give up, humble themselves before God and let HIM take over! A dead end is no dead end if it takes you down the road you were meant to be on. :)
"And yes it's very possible that people could be having genuine experiences and interactions with the Biblical 'Divine Being' and not writing great books about it but why then keep it secret?"
We are not keeping it secret. We are preaching the Gospel, are we not? What we do, we do for the glory of God and not of ourselves. Have you noticed all the megachurches and big name “Christian” speakers? They do it for money and not for God. There are also books out there where people have had encounters with angels or where God has intervened. The Reader's Digest has some "Angel" series books. I have a book called "Whispers from Heaven" that I like to read. And whose to say you would even believe such books? :)
"Still whatever the case it's nothing for me to base my own faith on. The God of the Bible and Jesus did not say a rare few scattered through the centuries would know him.. he said anyone and everyone can know him and experience him in all fullness. This I guess is more my point. This invitation was extented to every living person. All mankind."
You are correct. But I must tell you that if you wish to know God truly, you will have to forget all the Watchtower teachings about Him. They are wrong.
"This shows that doubts are normal and Jesus did not consider it a mortal sin. Wanting proof is normal."
It is normal. But also remember that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh a sign (Matt 12:39). And no sign shall be given them except that of Jonah. What did Abraham tell the rich man who was in torment after death? If they will not believe Moses, they will not believe one who was raised from the dead (Luke 16:31). And remember, Judas walked with Jesus and still betrayed Him. The Pharisee's and scribes saw all that Jesus had done and still denied Him.
"But I have never seen, met, heard or had any confirmable interaction from either God or Jesus ever in my life. So what people are really telling you to have faith in is the opinions, views, intepretations, research, studies, writings, rantings, and mere gossip of others that you have also never seen, met, heard or had any interaction with. (not that that would make any difference)."
I have to ask. How do you know I wasn't put here to help you? Or the few others who seem to be telling you about God. Think about it. All these atheists pretending to be your friend and pushing you away from God. Yet here I am (and a few others) telling you otherwise? Have you ever received a gospel tract from someone? Or have you ever listened to a random preacher on the radio? God is calling out to each and every one of us. It is up to us to choose to listen or not. Like I posted above; maybe God has spoken to you, but you have yet to listen. God puts people in our lives to help us. I wouldn't have been saved myself but God put a person in my life to tell me the truth, to lead me to Christ. If God hadn't done that, I would probably still be a JW lost in my sins.
"41,000 different Christian denominations!!! 41,000 different versions of truth from that same one book called the Bible!! And that's just the denominations, with individuals there are as many versions of truth as there are people on earth!"
This doesn't surprise me. Satan has been twisting God's Word since the Garden. Satan, his angels and his followers can appear as "angels of light" (2 Cor 11:13-15) Not all 41,000 denominations can be called "Christian". Many of those denominations have a different Jesus or even a different God of the Bible. And many of them base salvation on works. You become a slave to a religion that teaches that you must serve them in order to gain Heaven. Many of those relgions have their own "bibles" or other literature. Many of those religions deny independent thinking or independent study of the Bible. Many of those religions were started by men who did not agree with the God/Jesus of the Bible. True Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal and profound relationship with Jesus Christ. It is the greatest Love one can ever know!
I could go on and on but you are probably tired of reading all this. :) If you want to experience the "Living God", then you have no further to go than Jesus. I pray all the best for you on your journey. And if you ever need a friend to talk to, I am here. :)
Take care and God bless.
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Hairtrigger
The Bible is a book created by a single race of people in the middle east, for themselves. It was their claim -with "Miracles" or "Miraculous occurances", experienced by their own kind - that access to the "one and only true "god" was through their faith alone. Christianity, was an extention of this race's beliefs to other races and cultures, in an effort to indoctrinate them into the faith, which, till a particular point of time in their history, remained exclusive to their race alone.
By another extention, 600 years later, another race of people claimed exclusive angelic connection to the "true god" and established "true religion" in the Arabian peninsula,while denouncing the faith of their fellow residents in the neighbouring land.
About 1200 hundred years later , by yet another extention, another race of people, through direct , angelic, golden edictal connection to the "true god" established their "true "religion in what is the state of Utah today.
In our time, it could be compared to the the people of one particular country-USA's - claims of UFO sightings and "alien landings". Or to claims by other races of people in India , Sri Lanka, all countries in Africa ,S .America and the island countries of being able to speak with the dead, conjouring up spirits etc. etc.
One common line runs through all of this. Mere hearsay with no concrete scientific evidence to back up whatever their claims are. In fact, when examined minutely under the scanner of science, all these claims become pieces of fiction.
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Dis-Member
Thank you for your input. I have tried to be objective and have responded to each of your comments.
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“The Bible can be used to prove just about anything you like.”
True. But if you diligently search it yourself and pray to God for understanding, you will know what is truth and what is the lie. Scripture interprets Scripture.
But millions of people every day are doing just that and they also fast, and pray to God for understanding including the witnesses yet none of them really understand at all do they? You too sincerely prayed for understanding when you were a witness for many many years.. where was your understanding?
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“"God is not the author of confusion". Can you think of a single book that's caused more confusion than the Bible? What is literal and what is metaphorical? Everyone thinks that they have the right way and they all disagree with each other. And Jesus does not return and God is silent for thousands of years and never shows himself.”
The only Way is Jesus. He declared this Himself (John 14:6). Any other way is false. And any other Jesus is false. Jesus will return, friend. Do not fret. Remember, “a thousand years is as a day to God”. ;-) Also, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (Psalm 90:4) He has revealed Himself through His creation and His Word. Men are without excuse. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." (Rom 1:20)
Your just referring me to a book again.. (please read my previous comments about books)
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“How on earth are we meant to believe in any of it? Faith based upon nothing is madness.”
Key Scriptures: Heb 11:1, James 1:3, Gal 5:22, Rom 10:17
Heb 12:22 tells us that our faith is in Jesus not in nothing! 1 Pet 1:5-9, 1 John 5:4, 1 Cor 2:5
More words from more books none of which can be verified as 'real truth'. The current Bible canon was not decided on by God.. it was decided on by men. And men who apparently did not even have Gods approval.
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“If I am honest with myself the whole idea of a non-provable faith in anything is seeming more and more to me like believing in fairy stories. I personally can not prove a single thing of what I believe. I can't even defend it. What business do I have in believing it in the first place then? Merely saying 'because the Bible says so' is no longer enough as we already know they Bible can say anything you want it to.”
You cannot defend it because the Watchtower has preached lies to you. All Watchtower doctrine can easily be refuted with Scriptures by those who study it diligently and not waste time studying a bunch of magazines and books.
No I am not even talking about defending the watchtower or their teachings. Where did you get that from?.. I am talking about defending faith itself because not a single part of it can be proven or based on anything. Faith of that kind is a blind gamble.
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“I also can not prove that the Bible is anything more than an old book that not a single person in history has ever understood. How can I ever possibly hope to.”
I understand it. And many others like me. We are few and far between. The key to understand is to “search the Scriptures daily” and “meditate on God's word day and night”. Ask God for the answers you seek. The Bible has stood the test of time. Many have tried to destroy it. But like the hammer on the anvil, the hammer (nay-sayers) wears away but the anvil (the Bible) still stands!
You understand it? Millions and millions of people say the very same thing as you. Are they all wrong and you are the only one who is right? By what authority can you say you are right? Have you promoted yourself to some elite group of enlightened anointed?
Anvils wear out too eventually..
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"Let's be honest here.. there simply is no verifiable testable evidence for a God.. if there was someone would have won the noble prize by now."
Life. Life is more than enough proof for the existence of God. The amoeba-to-man theory of evolution is impossible. All processes within plants, animals and humans would have to have been there from the BEGINNING in order for life to begin and sustain itself. It did not go through “trial and error” phases or random mutations until the right process correlated with the others. If that happened then life would have died out years ago.
I have not questioned the existence of God. I said his existence can not be tested or proved. I'm not arguing about his existence. I'm talking about his presence on a daily basis and about the impossiblity of having a relationship with what is not present.
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“He also discusses the hypocrisy and insincerity of acting like you believe something when you don't. (i.e.: attendance and participation at meetings and ministry) Something very many in here do and have done for years.”
Agreed. You know what else is hypocritical? Preaching your unbelief in something or someone. Having conferences based on this unbelief. Even having a “bible” based on this unbelief. I'm talking about the atheists, here. :P
Pardon?
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“The Bible speaks of many men of old that had this wonderful illusive faith which are meant to inspire us. But of course they did! They saw fire a lightning come from the sky, they heard the thunderous voice of God from the heavens, they saw countless vast enemy armies vanquished with miraculous supernatural forces and whole cities swallowed with with fire and brimstone right before their eyes. Of course they would then have faith after experiencing such things if true.”
What about the men and women of the Bible and of today who have not had “in your face” experiences but still believe? And this belief is counted as righteous. Some of them did not have a “sign” from God. And for some, their “sign” came after they first believed. Examples of the faithful: Esther, Ruth (She was a Moabite but she stayed with Noami and believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And God rewarded her for her faith by making her a part of the Messianic bloodline. Ruth married Boaz. Ruth is the great-grandmother of King David.), Rahab (She was a prostitute before she became a part of the Messianic line. By faith she believed the spies who came to Jericho and it was this faith that saved her and her family. Her faith was confirmed when the walls of Jericho came down.)
Your just referring me to an old history book again.. The contents of which can not be tested or verified or confirmed as true. Your telling me about a story of a story of a story from thousands of years ago and you simply expect me to just believe you? Put faith in what you are saying? Have you really read my comments? Have you understood me?
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“Later according to the same Bible in Jesus time people had faith only and because they saw him perform countless impossible miracles and bend the laws of nature.”
And what about those who had God within their very midst but still denied Him, doubted Him or turned away from Him?
Not my problem. Also quite irrelevant. Why do you use 'doubt' and 'turn away' interchangeably? They really mean very different things.
The nation of Israel is a fine example. Even Pharaoh denied God during the plagues. And Sarah did not believe she would have a son. She laughed at God. Judas walked with Jesus and still betrayed Him! Other examples: Gideon, Jacob, Peter, Eve.
Pharaoh does not count as apparently it was God himself who hardened his heart again and again making it impossible for him to do anything different.
Sarah not believing is completely normal. She was 100 years old. She had no reason to believe anything that a complete stranger would tell her. Judas did not not believe in Jesus. He was just a traitor by nature. He did it for money. People will betray their own mothers or children for money even today. It's common. Nothing to do with believing or faith. It's just greed or/and wickedness.
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"People in those times prayed to God and often got an unmistakable response from him in less than 5 minutes. People today can pray for 50 years and have no response what so ever."
Not true! I've had plenty of answered prayers! God is not bound by time like we are. So we may get discouraged when God doesn't answer right away. There are several reasons why God doesn't answer sometimes. It could be that you have still unresolved sins and you haven't humble yourself before the Lord and sought His forgiveness. Or maybe you are holding a grudge against someone and need to forgive them? Or maybe it's just not time yet? Or you are asking for selfish reasons? Or God says no because the outcome wouldn't be want you expected it to be? And we are to pray without ceasing. And sometimes fasting is required.
Sometimes God does not always use thunder, lightening or fire form Heaven to get one's attention. Remember Elijah. “And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.” 1 Kings 19:11-12 Elijah also prayed seven times before his prayer was answered (1 Kings 18). Abraham waited 25 years before God fulfilled His promise of a son.
Maybe you are listening for the wrong thing? Or maybe you've received your answer and it's not to your liking? Or maybe you've received your answer and you just don't realize it yet? Try listening for a whisper instead of a shout. :)
Sorry I don't believe any of that. You and millions of others can tell stories of their personal God and how he speaks to them and answers their prayers. (I know many who claim to hear his actual voice) Please don't ask me to base my faith on your faith or your stories.
Fasting? If I have a child who cuts his leg and needs to be taken to a hospital.. will I make him ask me 'incessantly' first.. 'without ceasing'? And then make him skip a few meals too for 4 or 5 days days just to show me he is sincere?Abraham had a whole lot of personal experience with God.. he did not need anything to bolster his faith.
Him wanting a child was nothing to do with faith at all. It's just a natural human desire. It was a simple wish that every normal couple has. You have no proof at all that God made him wait 25 years either. Your just assuming that.I am not asking God for a child. I am simply asking God for God.
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“God was seemingly far more friendly and sociable back then and liked humans more making several of them his 'friend'.”
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith theLord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. Jeremiah 23:23-24
You too can be God's friend. The answer lies in Jesus. :) "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you". John 15:13-15
No.. that would make you Jesus friend not God's friend. Are you saying Jesus is God? God did not make anyone his friend in that time period either.
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“I'm sure if any of us today saw or experienced a single iota of this we would have the most unbendable and unbreakable and valid faith. But we don't.”
You speak for yourself. My faith cannot be shaken!
You are being illogical now. You once had faith when you were a witness that you had the complete and utter truth and no one on earth could convince you of any different because you said even of that truth that 'your faith can not be shaken'. Well obviously it got shook because then you completely trashed all of that faith and belief and truth and found yourself another 'new truth' and that this time it is 'the real true truth'.
You don't have a very good track record of believing things it seems.
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"In fact no human has experienced any direct interaction what so ever with God for over 2,000 years. We instead are told that we must have this same unbendable, unbreakable faith based on mere stories, legends, fables, parables passed down in copied, translated, manipulated, twisted, even possibly fabricated untrustworthy and unreliable documents written in languages we can not read and the veracity of which too can never ever be proven."
We no longer have the direct interactions as in the Bible because the Bible is complete. It is sufficient. All that remains to be fulfilled is the book of Revelation and the prophecies concerning the Antichrist.
No direct interactions? So you are saying that then only time God involves himself with humans on any real personal level is when it's in fulfilment of his own prophecy, promised seed or divine purpose. If it does not concern either of these 3 reasons he has nothing really to do with humans at all.
So there can be no personal intimate relationship with him then. Sorry but me having you tell me about Abraham's relationship with God 3,000 years ago is not 'sufficient for me to have any kind of relationship with God.
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"This is a form of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 20th, and even a hundredth hand faith. Faith in the story of the faith of another person is not real faith."
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God. ~Romans 10:17
More written books. And also no it does not.. untold millions have heard and read these same words and have no faith at all. What about people who can't read? Or the Blind? Or deaf? How do they find God?
God has to be findable without a book.. or eyes or ears..
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"We are then also told in that same Bible and by those that promote it that of we do not have this faith we are utterly rejected by God. Apparently to be acceptable to God, it is necessary for one to exercise faith in Jesus Christ, and this makes possible a righteous standing with God. (Ga 2:16) Those lacking such faith are rejected by God.—Joh 3:36; compare Heb 11:6."
Correct. :) And why not have faith in the One who created all things? Having faith in Him is an act of Love.
Love can never be inspired by threats... "love me or I will kill you" never got anyone anywhere. "Not only that but if your husband or wife don't also love me I will kill them too.. and if all your lovely 5 children that you prayed for and waited 25 years for, if they too don't love me I will kill them all as well".
"Why? Because I love you.."
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"The men that wrote that either knew or had a real and personal experience of God and Jesus so it was easy for them to say and write such things. No one in 2,000 years has had any such real experience."
I believe I covered this in an above response.
Referred to but not covered.
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"It seems that to have a real faith today in an uncontactable God and a 2,000 year absent Jesus is a physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual impossibility."
You are not alone. God is here. Just open your heart to Him. If you cannot feel Him then it is by your own doing. Do not harden your heart to the Lord. Jesus is not absent. In fact, the signs of His soon return are upon us. Examples: Israel becoming a new nation, God bringing the Jews back to their homeland, the desolate nation of Israel blooming once again, the world's hatred of Israel, the moral decline in our society (especially violence and homosexuality, a.k.a, the days of Noah and of Lot), the weather going from one extreme to another, the blasphemy that is all over the media, the falling away from the faith, the gospel being preached to all nations, the world's leaders trying to set up a one world government, religion, and economy; famine, earthquakes and pestilences. Now I know that some of you may say, “this stuff has been going on for ages”. True. So what's the difference with our generation? All of these things are happening at once with an increase in occurrence and intensity. “The whole of creation groaneth as a woman in travail”. Just as a pregnant woman about to give birth, her contractions become more frequent and increase in intensity. Rom 8:22, 1 Thess 5:3
Just open your heart to Him.
Open your heart? How do you do that exactly? I was not even aware we could open or close our hearts. In fact we have no concious control over our hearts at all. Abstract madness.
If you cannot feel Him then it is by your own doing.
I knew that was coming. Yep.. just blame me.
Do not harden your heart to the Lord.
We can harden and soften our hearts too.. and well as open and close them? This sounds like impossible Ninja Spiritual Yoga.
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“What is needed to have genuine faith then is not the study of some dusty old antiquated parchments housed in the British Museum or the Vatican Library but rather for the living God to actually unmistakably do something in our lives today, right now to inspire and foster such faith. Without this there can be no surprise that the world is in utter and total confusion as to the existence, identity, nature and will of God.
It's not my intention to be unduly critical of the Bible and those that believe in it unequivocally.. (how can I criticize what I can not prove or even comprehend?). I'm just sad and confused that I have so very little if anything at all to build my faith upon. My study and experience of the Orgites has left my faith all but completely demolished and in tatters. I am left with nothing but total uncertainty.
I'm tired and weary of books and writings of the words of men claiming to be truth on any matter at all when there are as many different truths as there are people on earth.”You may think that, but God declares that you do in fact need His Word, the Bible. Without it you cannot understand Him.
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. ~1 Tim 3:16,17
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. ~Psalm 119:105
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’" ~Matt 4:4
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. ~Josh 1:8
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. ~Rom 15:4
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. ~Heb 4:12
And many other Scriptures I could show you.
More books and more quotes from what you claim to be the word of God and that I should just take your word for that? Yes one can learn wisdom from books.. but not have a relationship via one.
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"Really not sure where to go from here. I have reached a dead end."
It is usually at this dead end where many finally come to know God. They give up, humble themselves before God and let HIM take over! A dead end is no dead end if it takes you down the road you were meant to be on. :)
"humble themselves before God and let HIM take over!"
Maybe this is the only part that makes some sense. But it requires God to ac,.. that's just what I want to experience. His actions in my life.
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"And yes it's very possible that people could be having genuine experiences and interactions with the Biblical 'Divine Being' and not writing great books about it but why then keep it secret?"
We are not keeping it secret. We are preaching the Gospel, are we not? What we do, we do for the glory of God and not of ourselves. Have you noticed all the megachurches and big name “Christian” speakers? They do it for money and not for God. There are also books out there where people have had encounters with angels or where God has intervened. The Reader's Digest has some "Angel" series books. I have a book called "Whispers from Heaven" that I like to read. And whose to say you would even believe such books? :)
I was not referring to you in the above. Interesting though how you so eagerly promoted yourself to the special class of those writing about and preaching the "real real genuine true true truth". I think you may have missed my point.
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"Still whatever the case it's nothing for me to base my own faith on. The God of the Bible and Jesus did not say a rare few scattered through the centuries would know him.. he said anyone and everyone can know him and experience him in all fullness. This I guess is more my point. This invitation was extended to every living person. All mankind."
You are correct. But I must tell you that if you wish to know God truly, you will have to forget all the Watchtower teachings about Him. They are wrong.
I have never really believed in the watchtower business book selling. All they ever did was separate me from God even further.
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"This shows that doubts are normal and Jesus did not consider it a mortal sin. Wanting proof is normal."
It is normal. But also remember that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh a sign (Matt 12:39). And no sign shall be given them except that of Jonah. What did Abraham tell the rich man who was in torment after death? If they will not believe Moses, they will not believe one who was raised from the dead (Luke 16:31). And remember, Judas walked with Jesus and still betrayed Him. The Pharisee's and scribes saw all that Jesus had done and still denied Him.
I am hardly wicked and hardly adulterous. That is referring to a completely different type and kind of person.. Not people like Thomas at all... or me for that matter.
You just manipulated scripture to suit your own purpose and motive. That right there shows me you do not quite have the truth at all and that you do not really understand the Bible.
But how nice of you to equate my simple, logical natural, honest and sincere doubt to that of being a murderer of Jesus.
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"But I have never seen, met, heard or had any confirmable interaction from either God or Jesus ever in my life. So what people are really telling you to have faith in is the opinions, views, interpretations, research, studies, writings, rantings, and mere gossip of others that you have also never seen, met, heard or had any interaction with. (not that that would make any difference)."
I have to ask. How do you know I wasn't put here to help you? Or the few others who seem to be telling you about God. Think about it. All these atheists pretending to be your friend and pushing you away from God. Yet here I am (and a few others) telling you otherwise? Have you ever received a gospel tract from someone? Or have you ever listened to a random preacher on the radio? God is calling out to each and every one of us. It is up to us to choose to listen or not. Like I posted above; maybe God has spoken to you, but you have yet to listen. God puts people in our lives to help us. I wouldn't have been saved myself but God put a person in my life to tell me the truth, to lead me to Christ. If God hadn't done that, I would probably still be a JW lost in my sins.
What atheists pretending to be my friend? Is posting a comment in a forum pretending friendship? In order for anyone to push me away from God they have to be right next to him. Atheists don't even believe God exits.. how can they push me away from what does not exist for them?
No disrespect but I'm not sure that you are not here to bring me to God either.. you are here to bring me to 'your own personal idea' of God and what he is, what he feels, what he thinks and what he does. Remember that you are on at least your 3rd kind 'truth' already. 1. The one you lived your life by before the witnesses met you. 2. The one you lived by when you became and were at witness. 3. The one you are living by now. 3 times you have exchanged one truth for another. Now you want me to have faith, trust and confidence in what you say and again.. for the 3rd time.. it is 'the truth'.
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"41,000 different Christian denominations!!! 41,000 different versions of truth from that same one book called the Bible!! And that's just the denominations, with individuals there are as many versions of truth as there are people on earth!"
This doesn't surprise me. Satan has been twisting God's Word since the Garden. Satan, his angels and his followers can appear as "angels of light" (2 Cor 11:13-15) Not all 41,000 denominations can be called "Christian". Many of those denominations have a different Jesus or even a different God of the Bible. And many of them base salvation on works. You become a slave to a religion that teaches that you must serve them in order to gain Heaven. Many of those regions have their own "bibles" or other literature. Many of those religions deny independent thinking or independent study of the Bible. Many of those religions were started by men who did not agree with the God/Jesus of the Bible. True Christianity is not a religion. It is a personal and profound relationship with Jesus Christ. It is the greatest Love one can ever know!
I could go on and on but you are probably tired of reading all this. :) If you want to experience the "Living God", then you have no further to go than Jesus. I pray all the best for you on your journey. And if you ever need a friend to talk to, I am here. :)
Take care and God bless.
Are you too an angel of light?
"And if you ever need a friend to talk to, I am here. :)
That's exactly what the witnesses said to me when I had my very first Bible study..
"Then you have no further to go than Jesus" Where is Jesus that one can go to him? How can I go to what I can't see, touch, feel, hear, and that lives in a realm on a different plane of existence entirely? I find it amazing how so called spiritual people casually tell others to do the utterly impossible like "turn to God" or "accept Jesus" as though either of them were standing right in front of me or that I am activly resisting either or both. Every single one despite having countless opposing beliefs caused by having personal interpretation of Bible means claims to have 'a personal and profound relationship with Jesus Christ'.And when I fail at spiritual telepathy, time travel, quantum leaping, traversing and projecting my heart which I have suddenly learned to open and close and harden and soften with the efficiency of a sea anemone into the intangible spirit realm in an attempt to make contact with a God I will be told it must be all my fault.
I obviously did not want God enough so I must be an wicked adulterous murderer.
Life and people are also not so black and white. Having a doubt does not mean you are a devil worshipping baby killer and active opposser and resister of God Himself and that you deserve to burn agonisingly in a fiery hell for all eternity as you described to me earlier. -
OnTheWayOut
I caught up with what Dis-Member is saying. Good job of answering, Dis-Member.
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DJS
I think Maranatha (Come Lord Jesus - we get it) and Givemejustalittlemoretime are related or friends. They arrived at the same time; we can only hope they both leave soon. DisMember, you are more patient than I. Maranatha and GMJALMT are the newly appointed FDS and GB. They and they alone have 'true' scriptural insight and a direct conduit to the big girl in the sky and her son (Come Lord Jesus - we get it). None of us had the 'lord' when we were Dubs, and no one on the planet has the lord now except for those two. And Perry. What about the nearly 1 billion Hindus? The 350,000,000 Buddhists? The 1.6 bilions Muslims, 24 million Sikhs, 14 million Jews? Any hope for them Maranatha? You are no different than the Dubs. Actually worse.
How many of the 2.2 billion Christians really have the lord Maranatha/Perry/GMJALMT? The Dubs clearly don't, right? what about the following groups. do any of these REALLY have the lord?
Latter Day Saints
Catholics
Baptists
Methodists
Orthodox
Unitarians
Presbyterians
Episcopalians
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ablebodiedman
I'm not losing faith in faith.
I'm losing faith because what Jesus Christ said would happen, is really happening!
Faith is no longer required!
Jesus Christ is amazing!
abe
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