X-JWs Who are now bible Christians

by clash_city_rockers 169 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Hello Dino,

  Hope that you are well.

  Somehow your post slipped past me and I am little puzzled as to what you are referring to.

  My posts were directed towards Clash and he alone, as it is he who is condemning all but one poster among those who originally aligned themselves with him.

  You may view yourself as a Christian Dino, the important question, at least on this thread is whether the 'spittle-lipped' Clash views you as such. Of all the posters who reacted to his call to arms, he only seems to accept that one person so far is on the true path - and she has not thanked him for the confidence he has in her....lol

  Best regards - HS
• 

  Dino

  Take care my friend.

  If I ever make my way across the pond, maybe we can crack open a chianti!

  Dino
• 

  hillary_step

  This would most certainly be a pleasure Dino - my treat.

  Kindest regards - HS
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Little asks:
  

  To your mind, at what point does one become saved?
  (being effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, etc.)

  I believe it is at the point of justification. Justification is not only the point where God declares you righteous based on the merit of Christ, that is the book is officially and eternally stamped (saved) at the time of justification. Justification is where the eternal decree in regards to ones personal election comes to pass and the redemptive benifits of the covenant of grace personally begin. It’s at this point (justification) where charges against sin are dropped.

  Romans 8:33-34
  

  33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

  One unique thing about justification by faith alone is that only God can justify the wicked Rom. 4:5 If man were to exercises the same manor in jurisprudence it would be a manor of abomination in the sight of the Lord. The wicked must be punished!

  Duet. 25:1
  

  When men have a dispute, they are to take it to court and the judges will decide the case, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty.

  Our jurisprudence must be consistent in condemning the wicked Duet. 25:13-16; Proverbs 11:1; 20:10,23

  Is God inconsistent in letting the guilty go? NO, because these guilty has place their faith (a gift from God) in Jesus and Jesus is punished as guilty on the cross for the sins that they (the sinners who place their faith in Jesus) are charged with.

  Little goes on:
  

  Is it the point at which they:
  a) exercise saving faith.
  b) start delving into the living word.
  c) accept certain doctrines.
  d) attend church.
  Is it not at the point they exercise saving faith?
  Are they not at this point ajoined to the body of Christ?
  Are they not at this point our spiritual siblings?

  This will take some time in understanding true conversion. When one is “exercising saving faith”, trusting Jesus this is a gift from God. When one is converted he is converted by God through the means of His word primarily by preaching.

  James 1:18
  

  18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first-fruits of all he created.

  faith does not come from us but from God and His word
  

  17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

  
  Through this vehicle of the word God REGENERATES MAN man does not make himself regenerate or born again but this action only rests on Jehovah God.

  John 1:13
  

  13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

  John 3: 3-9
  

  3Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
  4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
  5Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again.' 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

  The most convincing passage I think is this Ephesians passage

  Eph 2:1-5
  

  1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

  Philippians 1:29
  

  For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

  So then it is no doubt that true saving faith comes from Jesus. Only those who are regenerated can have faith. Regeneration precedes faith and repentants. . Only the regenerate can choose Christ for salvation. Only those who are truly regenerated by God unto faith and justification will grow in sanctification and holiness. When one is saved (justified, and that is only the regenerate) sin has no dominion over him/her.
  Romans 6:1-6
  

  1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
  5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[1] that we should no longer be slaves to sin

  Look Paul is making an apodictic statement that sin will not have dominion to those who have been saved by grace alone.

  Romans 6:14
  

  14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

  So If Plum is saved as you say she is then she will immediately and progressively grow in holiness and sanctification and her forsaking sin, battling her flesh the world and the devil. Look don’t freak out I am not talking about perfectionism but merely the common every day battles of the normal Christian life. A Christian will sin occasionally but only the Christian has the ability to fight sin and temptation and will occasionally defeat sin and temptation It is an every day battle. The unbeliever has no power against sin and sadly gives into sin after sin until he gets worse and worse morally. Again only the Christian has the ability to grow in holiness and to mortify his own sinful desires the unbeliever doesn’t. So plum should be growing in this area. I’m not saying she should be perfect or mature in this area just that she is growing. Remember the vines in John 15

  John 15:1-8
  

  1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
  5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

  
  Little says:
  

  Whether, or not, they have taken the step of attending a church may have little relevance to their profession, at this point.
  You surely haven't forgotten the fact that the conditioning that many received as JW's will have affected their view of church?

  The scriptures render your point irrelevant. As to their conditioning that they received as JW’s your claim is just a bunch of psychobabble. When one is regenerated he is a new creature in Christ and will begin to live and think as a new person in Christ.
  2 Corinthians 5:16-17
  

  16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

  Also you pointed out the irrelevance of attending church in relation to ones conversion to Christ. Unfortunately this runs against the doctrine of Union with Christ for all the saved. You see at salvation one is united to Christ and all his benefits that also includes Christ’s church. So we find a local covenant body of believers because we are consistent and true to that union. Little, only those who are alienated from Christ stays and remains outside the church.

  Eph 2:12
  

  12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

  Now those who are united in Christ by faith are now part of the covenant community and must join local church. It is part of who he/she is as a Christian.
  Eph 2:13
  

  13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

  
  And where else is the blood of Christ proclaimed but the church where Christians belong.
  Up to this point I guarantee you that every one in your session at will agree with these points.

  Little rewrites the faith affirmation this way:
  

  Just to simplify your questions, although others may prefer them phrased a different way: 1. Do you believe the bible is the word of God?2/3. Do you believe that Jesus is your Lord and Saviour?4. Do you, on reflection, realise the benefit of associating with fellow Christians?

  The problem here is that you have down graded the content of this affirmation. Frankly a Mormon can look at your reaffirmation statement and agree to it and yet Mormons are not Christians for they deny Christ with their doctrines. In fact I can show this downgraded affirmation to a JW at the door and he will affirm such a vacuous statement. As long as it doesn’t have content as to define positions and draw the line in the sand anyone can affirm such a statement.

  As Cool Hand Luke would say “I think we have a problem of communication here”. Even worse, I think we are equivocating on the matter. Lets put forth our definitions as to make are positions clear and our meanings well defined from this point out.

  That is all for now.

  AChristian and Plum, I will address your points latter on today.

  Peace,
  Jr

  This post has been brought to you by: James Montgomery Boice’s book- Standing on the Rock : Upholding Biblical Authority in a Secular Age. And R.C. Sproul's book-Chosen by God

  
  
  
• 

  waiting

  I've read the first page.....slipped to the last - so therefore, answering from first page.

  Born Catholic (schools and all) and at 18 - started studying with jw's (I was secretly dating a jw). Baptized at 21, left at 51. Alllllllllllll those years..........

  Now? NEVER will I join another church - I've concluded I don't make good religious church decisions. Otherwise, I prefer the comfort and freedom of being an agnostic - just accepting I don't know everything.

  There's one born again every minute. P.J. O'Rourke

  I am a born again atheist. Gore Vidal

  waiting
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  I growing more afaid that according to Little's compromised docrinal standards. LittleToe would consider Waiting a bible beliving born again Christian.

  Just a "Little" nervious,

  jr
• 

  LittleToe

  Waiting:
  You're going to regret doing that

  Clash:
  I see you are being judgemental, again.

  Waiting has contributed to a thread with the aforementioned title, giving sparce details of her religious background.
  I am in no position to question her profession of faith, beyond her willingness to contribute to this thread. Are you really able to confirm that she isn't a Christian?
  Although I suspect it is unlikely, I'm in no position to judge. It seems that her agnostic comment is qualified to mean "just accepting I don't know everything".

  You have judged people based on your perception of what they have been willing to reveal on a public electronic forum. To my mind that is potentially a very dangerous and bigotted thing to do.

  If you want to condemn me for "compromised docrinal standards" then you'd best do two things:
  1. Find out what my standards are, because you haven't the foggiest idea what I believe in.
  2. Find out what my standards were.

  You see, even in that comment you are proving contary to you're hard held beliefs.
  You accept the doctrine of Progressive Sanctification, yet know nothing of my current or previous beliefs. How can you be sure that I have compromised?

  You see, the bottom line is that you really don't know.
  You don't know any more than each individual on this board is willing to reveal.
  You don't know what is persona, and what is real.
  You don't even know if I believe what I have been arguing for, or against, or am playing devil's advocate.

  Lack of knowledge is a dangerous ground to make judgements on, even if they be judgements of character.

  I'll go on to summarize your post, because most probably won't bother reading through it...
• 

  jst2laws

  Billygoat, Little Toe, hillary_step, Bona Dea, Plum and others,

  Wow, I love you all. I got turned off this thread about page 3 and just checked it out again this morning. I have missed some great discussion. But it is best that way. My blood was boiling several times as I read. The reasoning was good and mostly calm and Christian. Hillary, you are one of the funniest intellectuals I know. Billy, you came across as a true Christian. Little Toe, you have really shown here you are Circuit Overseer material.

  Six and seeken,
  While we, six, have differed in the past over my Christian faith in this thread I feel more a brotherhood with you than our Christian fanatic. (Yeh, ccr, to you that makes me an apostate.) I appreciate both of your input on this topic

  Gumby,
  I would like try to give a satisfying answer to your questions but I am still formulating the details in my own mind and heart. I'm am afraid to post them as yet. Not afraid of being mistaken as much as I'm afraid of coming off dogmatic. At this point that would be more of a sin than have flaws in my personal beliefs.

  Clash,
  Again I thank you for starting this thread. It has been stimulating and educational. As you I have come to know many posters here much better as a result.

  I must say, though, my friend, you have come off very offensively. You have shown us Christians how not to share our faith. You remind me of Mat. 15:1-5 where some of the older men in Jerusalem interrupted the spiritual good time of the friends to demand everyone accept their narrow view of the truth. You will note there that the writer made note they had been Pharisees. They lost the argument that day and the CONGREGATION decided to no longer "burden" the brothers with dogmatic teachings the that the Pharisaical ones were demanding.

  I hope you can see with Little Toe's help, you are hurting people and your cause with your approach to evangelizing. I would welcome an effort on your part to prove me wrong by responding to this post with love, kindness, longsuffering, and patience produced by the spirit of Christ and the tolerance Jesus demonstrated among us sinners.

  Peace, my brother

  Jst2laws
• 

  LittleToe

  You make the following points:
  1. Judgement
  2. Saving Faith
  3. Regeneration
  4. Progressive Sanctification

  1. Judgement

  
  You quote Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" and then proceed to sit in judgement.
  You judge, not only others, but also me. So, from what you know of me, do you presume to know more than the two kirk sessions that met with me earlier this year?
  (One for baptism and one for going forward to the Lord's table?)
  The church I attend is staunch, and in the heart of Presyterianism.
  Do you presume to know more than God, who called me?

  You then quote the old testament in Deut.25 and Prov.11; 20, to support you action of condemning those that you have judged on the grounds of posting on a public forum.
  Notwithstanding that those texts were written to a covenanted people (Do you really want to take apart Covenant Theology here?).

  2. Saving Faith
  “Exercising saving faith” comes from God and His word.
  Faith is, after all, a fruit of the Spirit and hence implies that the one professing faith has been born of the Spirit (1 Cor.12:3).
  Hearing the word does not always involve going to a church building, as I was convicted by reading the word in my own lounge.

  3. Regeneration
  You then quote several texts to show that sin has no mastery over the regenerate. Yet you single-mindedly fail to quote Pauls words regarding the continued battle with falled flesh (Rom.7).

  4. Progressive Sanctification
  You then castigate my defense of Plmkrzy on the grounds that you see no evidence of the effects of Progressive Sanctification, in her life.
  Again I state that YOU DO NOT KNOW HER!!!
  You are in no position to judge her, from a few posts on a public forum.

  You then state that I psychobabble, because I disagree with your dogmatic statement that a Christian will immediately attend church. You seem to believe that the regeneration will make one immediately succumb to the mind of Christ in every aspect of life.
  Darn, I stayed in the JW's for six months. Does that mean I wasn't converted???
  Tosh and nonesense.
  My point is not invalidated by scripture, but rather is attested (Phil.3).

  Interum summation
  You seem to be mistaking the Universal Catholic church with a place of worship.
  You also seem to disagree with my restatement of your archaic faith affirmation, on the grounds that it lets too many into the kingdom.
  It may come as a shock for you - but there will likely be Arminians in heaven - gasp!!!
  Maybe some Roman Catholics, Mormons and JW's, too.

  The problem, as I see it, is that you don't evidence any real-world application of scripture and Theology, nor appear to grasp the key issues of modern-day evangelism. It appears that all your posts are taken out of books, as if that is the be-all and end-all.

  Theology has continued to develop for the last 2000 years, and will likely continue to do so until our Lord's return (1 Cor.13:9,10).

  If you believe that I have misrepresented you, in this summation, then I apologise. I am merely giving you a reflection of how you appear to me.

  A Suggestion
  If you really want to continue this I suggest we take one point at a time, because it's too verbose for anyone to bother to follow, let alone take in.

  You've railroaded your own thread into discussion of the role of the church in Christian life.
  This thread should really be moved to "Belief's". I suggest that you ask Simon to move it.

  And a final reflection.
  There is a difference between holding true to the faith and bludgeoning people with your interpretation of it.

  Whilst still a JW, more than a few years ago and before I became an Elder, a guy from the Free-Church made me stop and think.
  He asked me if I could truly be as bigoted as to think that I had all the answers and that only JW's would be judged aright?

  Sorry if this email is a bit verbose. That's not my usual style, and I apologise for it profusely.
• 

  LittleToe

  jst2Laws:

  Little Toe, you have really shown here you are Circuit Overseer material.

  You b*st*rd!!!
  Don't you EVER insult me like that ever again!!!