Killing In Self Defense (page 9)

TD

I don't think you can extrapolate a comment made in the context of somebody else's question into a categoric statement.

In my experience, I would say yes. I've shot animals in self defense twice in my life. The idea of shooting a human being has never even crossed my mind.

Apognophos

I wasn't extrapolating anything, I was just trying to understand your reasoning. I still don't. I guess if you stay out of bad neighborhoods or carry enough "mugging money" you'll probably be fine?

Anyway, nobody should want to shoot another person, and I was disagreeing earlier with the Drty Harry mentality of "if anyone breaks into my house, I'm just going to open fire on them". But as Cold Steel demonstrated, having a gun is often a sufficient deterrent, without having to use it.

TD

I wasn't extrapolating anything, I was just trying to understand your reasoning. I still don't.

As a child, did you ever read any of the semi-autobiographical novels by Laura Ingalls Wilder? Some of the personal interactions she describes are fictious, but she nails the day to day routine of frontier life in the mid 19th century fairly accurately. She describes a creature she calls a "Panther" which could snatch a grown man off of a horse in the middle of the night. Jaguars are threatened today, but at one time they ranged all over North and South America and as the third largest cat in the world, are almost certainly what she had in mind.

I wasn't using the word, "Civilized" as a synonym for Noble, Peaceful, High Minded, etc.; I was just making a comment about the degree to which human civilization covers the land. We're more civilized in much of the U.S. today then we were in the mid 19th century. The U.K. is more civilized than much of the U.S. in exactly the same way.

Apognophos

I see. I took "civiized" in the other sense of the word -- as you said, "high minded", or "enlightened". It didn't seem relevant to say that more of the U.K. is urban than the U.S. because, if anything, crime rates are higher in cities. The urban environment is fundamentally toxic to humans, and people turn to crime as a result of the formation of pockets of poverty in cities.

Cold Steel

You say you have shot two animals in self defense, TD, but that the idea of shooting a human being had never crossed your mind. Now that it has crossed your mind, what do you think?

Shooting that cougar would have devastated me because I tend to love animals. But when animals attack, it's generally for a reason. Either it or its brood is threatened, or perhaps it's been mistreated, or previously wounded by hunters. But the creature that attacks for meanness, or for the thirty bucks in my pocket, or to rape or murder just because they like it or feel like humiliating someone -- those are the ones there should be no bloodguilt for. I hope to never take a human or animal life for the rest of my life, but to protect a family member, friend or even someone else, I would do so.

When those Americans took down that plane on 911 at the cost of their own lives, they died well. I frankly can't see a plane full of "civilised" Europeans doing the same thing. It just wouldn't be them.

There's a great deal of truth in the saying, A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. Do a search on the Internet for an article entitled, "A Letter From An Angry Reader." It may give you an entirely new perspective on how people can change on this issue.

TD

Cold Steel,

I mean this kindly, so don't take it the wrong way.

I spoke of shooting animals twice in self defense which would be two incidents, not two animals. One was a Coati Mundi that ended up testing positive for rabies and the other was an attack by a pack of feral dogs on the reservation. Feral dogs have lived several generations on their own, so while they're no longer tame at all, they're still not terribly afraid of humans either. They've become a scourge of the Southwest with thousands and thousands of attacks and a few deaths every year. I don't agree with the idea that animals generally attack for more clearly justifiable reasons than humans do. It really depends on the species.

It's not possible to have this discussion at all without considereing the use of lethal force against another person as a hypothetical abstraction. When I mention having shot animals in self defense not as a hypothetical abstraction, but as a tangile reality and state in the same breath that the idea of shooting another human being has never occured to me, it should have been understood in that sense. Even were that not the case, I've already taken JW's to task on this very thread for preaching what amounts to functional pacificism while simultaneously criticizing those who follow it.

I'd also point out that I've read Quigley, Cooper and Ayoob among others and I'm familiar with the 'conversion' of Ms. Quigley's acquaintance after a murderer and rapist stuffed her in the trunk of her own car and drove her out in the woods to have some fun with her. (cf. Armed & Female, 1989) I'm not a pacifist, I'm not categorically condemning the use of lethal force and in my opinion, that man certainly deserved what he got.

But I think that incident speaks directly to my use of the word, "Civilized" on this thread. Why was the perpetrator driving her out in the woods to rape and murder her rather than doing it in the parking lot where he acosted her in the first place? The most common sense explanation would be to get out of earshot of other people and away from any potential interference.

sooner7nc

Quigley, Cooper and Ayoob...

Yes please.

Cold Steel

TD: No problem. I understood exactly what you meant by the two animals being two incidents of self protection. I'm not entirely certain where, exactly, you stand on your own self defense...or even if there was a problem. Some people have no problems shooting animals in self defense, but would not shoot humans. My wife, for example, wouldn't shoot people, period. She won't even let me teach her how to shoot.

mrquik

I always find it amusing the responses you get from people on the issue of self defense who have never experienced that terror. I live in a sleepy little village in upstate NY. I have a carry concealed permit & ususally have a 32 Beretta on me. Several weeks ago a deranged man attacked 4 of my construction crew that were working on my new home. I have a project trailer across a field & watched this attack. I ran out to the middle of the field & yelled at this guy to get off my property & that I was calling 911. He immediately ran towards me. He is about 6' 4" weighs about 220 & looked like a freight train coming at me. There was no way I was going to outrun this guy. Although armed, I did not pull a weapon as he had no weapon in his hand. As he got to me, I ducked the first punch but caught the second on the side of my face. This cut the corner of my mouth & punctured my cheek. He then grabbed me in a headlock & threw me on the ground. Now, believing he was going to break my neck & realizing I was in mortal danger, I rolled onto my back with this guy still holding me in a headlock so I could pull my Beretta out & empty the clip in this guy's chest. For no apparent reason he stopped the attack & walked away shouting to himself. By that time the state police arrived (whom he also attacked) subdued him & took him into custody. At the hospital, I needed 7 stitches to sew up my mouth & had to see a surgeon. To this day, I have no animosity towards this guy, but regardless, I have the right of self defense. It is a decision I had to make in seconds. I did call 911, but if this guy really wanted to, I'd be dead long before help would have arrived. Like I said, I live in a sleepy little village & was attacked on my own property. If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere.

Killing In Self Defense

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