Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon 551 Replies latest social current

• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  You're going to ignore the entire quoted information that directly supports part of my assertion because of a mistype? Are you trying to share ideas and have a discussion, or do "gotchas" to look like you won an argument on the Internet?

  Pacopoolio,

  Respectfully, it is unrealistic to expect readers to decide what is or is not a typographical error in what you write. More to the point, I have no idea whether you mistyped or whether you're now claiming a typo realizing your original assertion is shown to be a blatant falsehood!!! Moreover, I don't care one way or another because I have no inclination to "win" an argument--whatever THAT is supposed to mean.

  My interest is in examining the subject at hand. Part of examining a subject is examining what people bring to the table in terms of evidence and logical argumentation based on that evidence. Hence I ask questions and ask for evidence.

  So far what I've seen from you is fallacious use of strawman argumentation and, more recently, an offering of evidence that spoke contrary to your assertion. Of the latter you say what you asserted was a typo. Fine. That does not change your other fallacious method, one you bothered to make an assertion of toward me that to date is left unevidenced. What you've demonstrated in this discussion is not what is expected from a person who appeals to scientific means and methods. Frankly, I've relegated things coming from you to a point where I nearly pay no attention. Make of that whatever you will. I don't care. I'm here for the subject not the personalities.

  Tell you what, when you get around to proving the assertions you made of my earlier statements--and I'm SURE you know precisely what I'm talking about--then you and I have more to talk about.
• 

  Pacopoolio

  Simon,

  I was addressing EndofMysteries there; why are you "saving" him from trying to dig his way out of his statements?

  And the majority race does not have a pervasive/constant reference to their skin color, and thus has the luxury of not "caring" that's the advantage of privilege of being the "norm." That's an advantage of privilege, just as I have the advantage of male privilege in instances where I don't even have to CONSIDER my gender, or orientation privilege, where I don't normally even have to consider what sexual orientation I am.
• 

  EndofMysteries

  talesin - So poverty alone is the issue? How does poverty equate to the disproportionate among of fatherless black children? Over 70% while for other races under 40%? The poorer somebody is, the more economical to live with family, etc. In poor Mexico they don't have those kinds of statistics. Now if it is poverty alone, how can that be fixed? I know for a FACT many black youth are discouraged from higher education and bettering themselves because it's being 'too white'. But the ones who do are doing good. Also because of the high criminal records, if somebody has an extensive police record by age 16, let alone any record, their opportunities greatly decrease. Is it racism that somebody with a criminal history and school dropout can't get a decent job?
• 

  Simon

  I'm white but I'll say whether white or black, I am bad with faces if everyone has similar haircuts or features.

  Most people are very bad at recognising or identifying faces outside their own ethnicities. It's also very hard to judge ages too.

  One reason descriptions probably start with "it was a black guy ..." and then peter out. It's not that it's all people see, it's that it's difficult to come up with distinguishing features other than very obvious ones.
• 

  Pacopoolio

  Marvin - this is the statement I referred to, where you said I used a strawman (notice that I -do- actually quote things I'm referring to, directly). I asked you what you meant by dressing like a thug, and assumed you equated a hoodie with at, and asked you to expand, because, as is, that's a faulty premise (because there's a different equivalency between race and perception, so "dressing like a thug" would differ between race). That does not fall under the definition of strawman, but whatever. :

  A person walking around at night in a grocery store with a hoodie drawn over his or her face is going to get followed by security regardless of race. It won't matter whether the person is black or white, or lives in the projects or Beverly Hills.

  A person who walks around dressed like a gang member is going to be watched as a potential gang member. It won't matter whether the person is black or white, or lives in the projects or Beverly Hills.

  You then pointed out that it was "separated by paragraphs"; but as this direct quote shows, the structure of the paragraphs imply equivlalence because of the direct parallel, by the structure of the writing and sentence/paragraph/word relationships. When a sentence follows another like that, in that structure, that's a descriptive statement.
  
  If you meant something else, that's fine, but there was no strawman - just someone responding to the words that you wrote in the way that you structured them.
• 

  Pacopoolio

  have been given a narrative about the past and present which contains more anger and hatred than is useful or healthy.

  "Have been given a narrative about the past?" What adult black person in this country hasn't experienced multiple examples of direct racism from someone of the majority race? You don't think that when you experience 10 people who share the skin color of people who have power over you in most instances of life, you don't get a little paranoid? You think women are worried about many of the same things as black people because of "the narrative they've been given" as well?

  I mean, do you even consider that when a minority or a woman or a gay tells you that they have a different experience entirely from you based on how other people have viewed them, that this might be the case, and not just "people scaring them with the past?" Or is that just for black people?
  
  Do you understand or believe in the concept of relative privilege, and how it means that you don't even consider what CONSTANTLY goes through someone without's mind (and it not being because of 'things in the past' either)?
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  You then pointed out that it was "separated by paragraphs"; but as this direct quote shows, the structure of the paragraphs imply equivlalence because of the direct parallel, by the structure of the writing and sentence/paragraph/word relationships. When a sentence follows another like that, in that structure, that's a descriptive statement.

  Pacopoolio,

  There you go again. Rather than answering for yourself you instead depend on a supposed implication that fits your desired end. Another fallacy.

  You're having a discussion with yourself.

  If you want substantive discussion with someone who cares and is willing to engage on logical terms then ask questions of things you read without transposing your views onto what is expressed and then attempting to refute THAT.

  What you do here is stunning to watch! Even AFTER me telling you in exactly SO MANY words that what you attribute to me is false you still regress to excusology by depending on a supposed implication DESPITE being asked to read what is LITERALLY expressed!

  Do you know the difference between what is literally said versus what is said by implication? What you're doing is amazing to watch!!!

  My recommendation is that you reboot and start over. I don't have time for games.
• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  talesin: Yeah, spoken like a true, privileged white person. lol, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but hell, you have NO CONCEPT in your mind, of what it's like to grow up in that situation.

  Please tell us, talesin: as a white, middle class Canadian female, what exactly is it like to live as a poor, Black, American male?

  And by your comments you reveal that you are a racist. Or is it that you disapprove only of majority against minority racism but have no problem with reverse racism?

  Your way of dodging any meaningful dialogue is fascinating: whenever someone says something you don't want to address(or can't) intellectually, your default attack is to label that person a privileged middle-class white person.

  My question to you is: how do you know you're not blasting a successful, self-made Black person who simply sees through your bulls**t rhetoric?
• 

  designs

  Since Michael Brown's death 14 teens have been killed by police officers. In the past couple of days two more fatal shootings and a near miss. One 12 year old died, Tamar Rice.

  Iceland had its first ever fatal police shooting last year, the first one, in its 69 year history. The officers do not carry weapons except in extrodinary circumstances. While Iceland has high gun ownership deaths by guns are rare. One murder in 2013. There is strict gun regulation. Iceland is more Socialist and class distinctions are less than in Capitalist countries. Iceland is a strong supporter of the UN Arms Trade Treaty and the UN Firearms Protocol.

  In the developed countries were fatal shootings have dropped in all catagories and crime is low Primary Care and Secondary Care factors are believed to be key factors. 1.Loving Family. 2. Social Programs- education, career training, social activities, civic pride.

  Do any School Districts in the US still offer Skilled Trades classes- Metal Shop, Wood Shop, Automotive Shop, Drafting. In the early 1960s we had those classes. When I graduated I had built tables and chairs for the Final. Metal shop- we made tools. Architecture class- I built a scale model home.

  Germany, as I understand, makes sure a High School graduate has a marketable skill and is in an apprenticeship program.

  The St. Louis School Districts are rated 4 out of 10 on test results. www.greatschools.org
• 

  Simon

  "Have been given a narrative about the past?" What adult black person in this country hasn't experienced multiple examples of direct racism from someone of the majority race? You don't think that when you experience 10 people who share the skin color of people who have power over you in most instances of life, you don't get a little paranoid? You think women are worried about many of the same things as black people because of "the narrative they've been given" as well?

  I don't know what 'same things' women and black people are afraid of (?)

  The point I was making is that kids from a very young age are fed a diet of hatred and resentment. It is not done to provide them with an informed sense of historical context, it's to indoctrinate them. When you see little 5 year old kids being taught that the police want to and are going to shoot them then there is something seriously messed up with the community and you are not telling me that those kids have been beat up by cops.

  I'm not saying to pretend that slavery didn't happen and wasn't abhorent but there are ways to teach people and take positives from it - change for the good and a responsibility to make the most of the opportunities that many suffered and died to achieve.

  I mean, do you even consider that when a minority or a woman or a gay tells you that they have a different experience entirely from you based on how other people have viewed them, that this might be the case, and not just "people scaring them with the past?" Or is that just for black people?

  So do you have gay-hate marches where they chant songs about the oppression they have suffered in the past? No. Gay pride - positive and celebrating the freedoms they now enjoy.

  A celebration of black culture would be more positive and change inspiring than riots and looting wouldn't it? Approach can make all the difference.

  Do you understand or believe in the concept of relative privilege, and how it means that you don't even consider what CONSTANTLY goes through someone without's mind (and it not being because of 'things in the past' either)?

  Is this the notion that it doesn't matter what you have or don't have, you want to claim "you've had it worse that everyone else"?

  There are lots of groups that have suffered unimaginable hardships. Not all chose to let their past define their futures or live believing that they have no other role to play than victim. There are groups that arrived in the US as refugees from war torn countries with nothing. No entitlement, often not speaking the language. Do they top the crime statistics or are they known as being hard working and industrious? Life is sometimes what you make it.

  Civil rights used to have a determined dignity that was impossible to object to. The current mob is very easy to dismiss as an angry rabble. This is despite many improvements in life over the last 20+ years. Some communities seem to be going backward instead of making progress and want to take no responsibility but pass on all of the blame.

  I just don't buy it. People are more tolerant and inclusive now over all manner of things including gay marriage. Why aren't black communities keeping pace and making progress like they used to?

  Leadership - lack of. They have been seduced by the victim mentality brigade who keep them suffering but make millions for themselves.