WORLD OF LIES COMING UNRAVELED

by You Know 155 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  bjc2012

  Hi Sirona:

  Your post was interesting. You point out many problems with JWs in general, yet still indicate that JWs (e.g. yourself) are privvy to the secrets of the prophyseys and that this is simply a refining process. That is a completely ridiculous claim. It is a cloak behind which you hide all the innacuracies and lies of the WBTS, saying that those who are faithful will stay true to Jehovah despite it all. Well, all they know of Jehovah has been spoon fed to them by the WBTS so their faith is based on this tainted organisation's interpretation of the bible.

  Continuing on that insightful point that you make, I see the terrible error in YK's SPECIOUS doctrine is revealed in his lack of knowledge of prophecy which he claims to believe in. Here is an example.

  Briefly, those of us who post to him regularly, can no doubt remember YK firmly believes in Bible prophecy as it applies to Jehovah's Witnesses specifically as a nation. One such prophecy he admits to believing in is Ezekiel 20:35-38. He believes this prophecy specifically applies to Jehovah's Witnesses. A prophecy that upon close examination shows an obvious close correlation to the contents of Revelation 12th chapter. These events YK believes is speaking of the FUTURE, events that lay before us. Specifically the mention of the "woman" being "chased" to the wilderness" as being "Israel". YK can point to Jeremiah 30:17 to back this thought up.

  But here is the real problem with that thought. You see, YK claims that among JWs there exists the spiritual "remnant", the anointed footstep followers of Jesus, who exist in an "EVERLASTING COVENANT" with Christ. Hebrews 13:20 shows it to be an "everlasting covenant", based upon the blood of Jesus. This is the "covenant" YK believes he is personally in, and the one that makes some 8,000 or so JW members, the anointed "Spiritual Israel" of God of our day. They are thus, the true "Household of God" he believes. But this very reasoning itself, is the fatal flaw in his argument, totally within itself. All we have to do is analyze the data. And the key text is Ezekiel 20:35-38.

  You see, when we closely examine Ezekiel 20:35-38, it shows "Israel" of Bible prophecy is to receive ANOTHER covenant from God AFTER they are sent to the "wilderness of the people!" Now this is AFTER God disciplines them, and they repentantly accept the discipline from God. This proves they are God's sons. (Hebrews 12:5-11) Afterwhich God gives them an ultimatum -- come under God's "rod" and accept a pernanent "bond" from Him in the form of a new "covenant" arrangement.

  Yipes! So what happened to the first covenant Israel had? The "Christian Covenant"? YK simply has no answer for that question. He is mute.

  In fact, the prophecy reveals Israel will not be allowed to even return to their "hereditary possession" and receive God's favor UNTIL they accept this new "covenant" arrangement from God. They must come under the "rod of God" to be reowned by Him and "bonded" to Him again, as before the initial transgression period. (Leviticus 27:32 NIV; Jeremiah 33:13) So, Israel must accept a new "covenant" arrangement AFTER they are disciplined in the "wilderness of the peoples" by the Almighty. Additionally, Jeremiah 50:4,5 shows this new covenant arrangement to be an "indefinitely lasting covenant that will not be forgotten".

  Ezekiel 20:35-38 reveals all of this. Below is a quote of the verses in question.

  "And I will bring you [Israel] into the wilderness of the peoples and put myself on judgment with you there face to face. Just as I put myself on judgment with your forefathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I shall put myself on judgment with you, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. And I will make you pass under the rod and bring you into the bond of the covenant. And I will clean out from you the revolters and the transgressors against me, for out of the land of their alien residence I shall bring them forth, but onto the soil of Israel they will not come; and you people will have to know that I am Jehovah."

  Above, Ezekiel 20:35-38 shows that ALL "revolters" and "transgressors" against God are "cleaned out", purged or rooted out from Israel. And what is left, are the ones that God chooses to deal with. Only what is left, a remnant are blessed by God. And these are the ones that Jehovah invites to "pass under his rod", and "bond" with Him in a new "covenant" arrangement. All "transgressors" are not permitted to go back to the "hereditary land" promised Israel. Evildoers cannot go back and do not receive any "covenant" from God. The only ones getting a new "covenant" arrangement is severely chastised, "re-bonded" Israel.

  So based upon the above information and what YK believes and teaches, if Bible prophecy reveals that spiritual "Israel" of our day is to receive an "indefinitely lasting covenant that will never be forgotten" AFTER being punished by God in the "wilderness of the peoples", why are they receiving a new "covenant" arrangement. Why does God require it. We must then ask, what happened to the first covenant, the one they supposedly had with Jesus Christ, the one spoke of in Hebrews 13:20? Well, simply put, IT MUST BE GONE! Its gone, so far as Jehovah is concerned, anyway.

  Now keep in mind, this does not even touch on the fact that the truly "anointed" of God of the first century, could not break the first covenant anyway, and receive another one. This would be impossible. The inspired writings of Paul and John show the reality that truly spirit-anointed individuals of the first century, had to prove faithful to the covenant of Jesus, because they had a "reproductive seed" within them that would keep them on track, always. So, if they should "fall away," Paul said they could not be "revived" ever again. They would have deliberately "grieved God's spirit" [the reproductive seed] to such an extent, that they had blasphemed it. (Eph. 4:30) This was the case of the truly anointed ones of the first century.

  Therefore, based upon the above established facts, and Bible prophecy that YK's so much believes, there simply cannot be any of the truly anointed among JWs at all. And based upon what YK teaches, this is especially true of his claim to be a member of "spiritual Israel" fulfilling Bible prophecy today. And as we know, YK does claims he in fact one of the anointed spiritual "Israelites" on earth today. But the bible reveals that if the JW Organization were led by truly anointed ones, they would not under any circumstances be invited by God to receive another "everlasting covenant" by Him AFTER they had forfeited the first one by BAD CONDUCT and "transgression". Not under any circumstances would God do such a thing. (Romans 8:14; Hebrews 6:4-8; 13:20; 10:26-31; 1 John 3:9)

  bjc

  [A full discussion on the Anointed "error" of YK: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=30542&page=2&site=3#398563]

  Edited by - bjc2012 on 26 June 2002 15:39:17

  Edited by - bjc2012 on 26 June 2002 15:45:56

  Edited by - bjc2012 on 26 June 2002 15:49:13
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  You Know

  Thanks for all the response. I have no time to respond right now, maybe later.

  / You Know
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  one

  You still beleive God has an org separeted from the rest of the world.

  How should we understand the profecy about sheep and goat?
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  SpiderMonkey

  Can't wait, hanging on your every word, YK.

  The only thing coming unravelled around here is your mind.

  LOLoha, Spidey
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  Sirona

  Woah, BJC, most of that went straight over my head!

  I think YK will have comments about it, no doubt. I'm interested to see if he addresses my point, because I've noticed that he's consistently ignored me recently. I'm not entirely sure why.

  Sirona
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  You Know

  BJC2012

  Your reasoning is seriously flawed. Here's why: The basis for God's dealing with the Israelite nation the way that he did was because they were in a covenant with him. When God punished the Jews by means of Babylonian exile, and then redeemed them, he did not at that time establish a new covenant with them. Jehovah merely enforced the already existing covenant. That is what is meant by bringing them into "the bond of covenant." Jehovah was not talking about setting up a new covenant with the Jews. First they must live up to the terms of the original covenant and not have any other gods before Jehovah's face. You are adding that in to try and make it say something that it doesn't. Nowhere in that context does it refer to a new covenant, although ultimately Jehovah did give the Jews a new covenant, that's not what Ezekiel is talking about. Again, Jehovah is merely requiring the Jews to live up to the contractual obligations of the Law of Moses. So, as the pattern applies to those in the already existing new covenant, Jehovah is going to intervene to judge his spiritual nation. Up to this moment spiritual Israel has not been inspected and judged with finality, evidenced by the obvious fact that we still have in our midst an unfaithful evil slave who is in the new covenant with Christ and we have a faithful slave who is in need of correction and discipline. The terms of the new covenant are that Christ is the high priest and king over the spiritual Jews, and according to his letters to the seven congregations of Revelation there are problems aplenty among his anointed ones in their various congregations, which Christ says in no mistakable terms that he is going to severely correct. So, Christ is going to make a purge of those unfaithful ones in the midst of his congregation just like Jehovah did to the Jews. By those means, then, the already existing everlasting covenant accomplishes its pupose by presenting a holy and cleansed people to Jehovah. Jehovah enforces the bond of covenant by disciplingly those who are in a covenant with him. You are very much in error.

  / You Know

  Edited by - You Know on 27 June 2002 7:23:47
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  joelbear

  When I was a witness I did not worship the governing body, I worshipped Jehovah, as best as I could. I had friends who were way into the politics of the organization and some who even memorized facts about the governing body as if they were sports heroes. I saw people who played the bureaucratic game and shyed away from them.

  I was fortunate that I grew up with a simple folk who just tried to live right and be friends with each other. Many of the elders played politics especially when the CO came around but we were mostly ignorant of this. I know I was until I grew up and went to Bethel. I found out very quickly how political the "society" was and I expect is still.

  If you were to discuss Jehovah, his attributes and a hope of a paradise earth through the ransom sacrafice of Jesus, I expect many apostates views would match those of current Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Joel
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  You Know

  Sirona,

  Again your arrogance shows through. YK interpretation of prophysey is right and everyone else is wrong? You know what Jehovah's purpose is, do you?

  Having supreme confidence in God's word is not necessarily arrogant. And, too, I am not the only person who views things this way. There are a number of us, admittedly small, who are aware of Jehovah's judgments upon his organization. Jesus referred to those who drink new wine and those who would drink old wine, and he said that those who drank the old wine preferred it saying: "The old is nice." So it is, that certain of Jehovah's people do not accept new ideas that others of us are aware of. That's just the way it is, for now. Of course when Jehovah's judgments commence, then, you have a situation whereby Jesus' judgment comes into play, namely, that some of those first will be last and the last first.

  I don't know how you can think that any "world of lies" created by the organisation could be approved of by God and could be part of his purpose. So God gets people to lie for his purpose now?

  The "world of lies" has reference to your world, not mine. / You Know

  Edited by - You Know on 27 June 2002 7:36:3
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  Sirona

  You Know

  You said:

  The "world of lies" has reference to your world, not mine.

  Yet in your first post you said:

  The Watchtower's credibility is equally in question in the minds of some due to numerous policy quaffs and outright lying and hypocrisy and seeming indifference to the ferment taking place in the organization. Sadly, it has resulted in many being stumbled.

  Bolded for emphasis. This comment points to the watchtower being in question in some peoples minds due to....lying. You go on to say that this is part of Jehovahs purpose to test those in the organisation, to cleanse it. Therefore I reiterate my previous question - God has lying in his organisation as part of his purpose? Moreover you suggest that God is using apostates in his purpose too. This God you refer to does not sound loving or truthful, since you suggest he is using deceit and lies to test people's integrity.

  Now for your point regarding confidence. You are not being confident in Gods Word. You are being confident in your own interpretation of God's Word. You admit that its only a handful of people who actually view it in the same way as you:

  There are a number of us, admittedly small, who are aware of Jehovah's judgments upon his organization.

  I find it amazing that on the strength of all the hypocrisy and lying (your words) within the organisation you make yourself feel better by telling yourself that its all part of Gods plan. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a religious organisation that is guilty of hypocrisy and lies is actually not approved of by God? Well, no, not in your world it wouldnt because that would mean that you'd have to face the reality that your faith is based on corrupt teachings of a man-made organisation.

  Sirona
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  You Know

  This comment points to the watchtower being in question in some peoples minds due to....lying.

  Yes, but that's not what I was referring to with the expression "a world of lies."

  God has lying in his organisation as part of his purpose? Moreover you suggest that God is using apostates in his purpose too. This God you refer to does not sound loving or truthful, since you suggest he is using deceit and lies to test people's integrity.

  Yes, the Scriptures are pretty clear about that. God ALLOWS falsehood to persist for a particular purpose. Apostates are those who stumble over the such things and then use them to try and stumble others. So Jehovah allows that sort of operation of error to occur to sift out those who are insincere and hypocritical in their faith. Daniel's prophecy explains why God allows that sort of thing where it says: "And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, IN ORDER TO DO A REFINING WORK BECAUSE OF THEM, and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening..."

  So, if God's purpose is to do a refining and cleansing, as the prophecy reveals, that means, for one thing, that God recognizes that there is an uncleaness and error that he tolerates for a certain period of time, for a specific purpose. The fact that you would blame God for the error of men is indicative of the mentality of those who are to be refined out of the organization by one means or the other.

  Now for your point regarding confidence. You are not being confident in Gods Word. You are being confident in your own interpretation of God's Word. You admit that its only a handful of people who actually view it in the same way as you:

  Well, my confidence lies in the fact that I know Jehovah. Like the prophecy of Daniel says, a few verses up from previously quoted: "But, as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively." The fact that you would accuse God of being unloving and untruthful reveals that you do not know Jehovah, and therefore you are not in any position to judge those who do. Like Paul said: "The spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man."

  I find it amazing that on the strength of all the hypocrisy and lying (your words) within the organisation you make yourself feel better by telling yourself that its all part of Gods plan. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a religious organisation that is guilty of hypocrisy and lies is actually not approved of by God?

  I find it amazing that JWs and XJWs can be so totaly blind. Although I present God's word to you that says very clearly why God temporarily allows error and falsehood, you prefer to belief the lie. That's because it is much to painful for you to come to terms with the fact that you have left the truth and are actually an apostate in Jehovah's eyes. Or as Paul described your situation: "And they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive for the will of that one."

  / You Know

  Edited by - You Know on 27 June 2002 9:10:39