A Mormon chimes in

by John Corrill 91 Replies latest jw friends

  • detective
    detective
    No we are not "shady" with our true beliefs when dealing with converts. Milk before meat is a simple enough concept. How many 4th grade children are handed books on physics? While physics is something they may need to know someday, trying to teach it to them before they are ready serves no useful purpose whatsoever. Not everyone needs to learn everything there is to know. For those who do want to learn it all, the information is there, readily available, the same as in real life.

    Wow, that paragraph is incredibly patronizing! I sure hope someone lets me know when they think I'm "ready" to know more about this belief or that belief. Yikes. But I've really already heard that 4th grader analogy or a very close variation of that argument. That's the one my JW friend tried on me. Yes, I'll understand better after I've spent time being heavily indoctrinated... funny how that works. I think the scientologists and moonies also tend to take that tone.

    Oh, by the way, I read an article that contradicted your statements that you do not shun. I believe ran originally in San Francisco but was then circulated throughout the nation sometime last fall, I think. I would have hung onto it, had I realized I would need it as a counter-argument! Susan, either you are wrong, or the people in that article were wrong. Or, maybe you are both right, albeit, in some parallel universe type of way. I really don't know which.

    www.exmormon.org

    Edited by - detective on 25 September 2002 12:55:29

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Susan,

    Sorry, but having an ex-missionary from chile and my bestfriend sit and front of me a tell me that Catholics are @%% and %@%# tends to tell me that they @%#% on other religions.

    Where exactly does the bible say that there are three levels of Heaven?? I guess all the Christians missed that part......

    Yes you use the KJV, and you use the Book of Mormon which tends to counterdict the KJV. Congrads on FINALLY having some minorities being that you FINALLY dumped the whole Mark of Cain.

  • Xander
    Xander

    And we don't believe in 7 heavens, but only 3 levels, same as in the Bible.

    Ehhhh...say what? Whose bible?

    To that end let me do my own chiming in here.

    To wit, here are the issues with Mormonism from that fellows site:

    • You will be expected to give up the use of alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea.
    • You will be expected to fulfill any work assignment given to you.
    • You will be expected to donate at least ten percent of your income to the church as tithing. Other donations will be expected as the need arises. You will never see an accounting of how this money is spent, or how much the church receives, or anything at all about its financial condition; the church keeps its finances secret, even from its members.
    • You will be continually reminded that to enter the highest degree of heaven (the "Celestial Kingdom"), you will have to go through the endowment ceremony in the temple and have your marriage to your Mormon spouse "sealed." (If your spouse is not Mormon, you cannot enter the highest degree of heaven.)
    • You will be expected to be unquestioningly obedient to church authorities in whatever they might tell you to do. "Follow the Brethren" is the slogan, and it means to follow without doubt or question
    • You will be able to "vote" on those who have been called to positions of authority over you, but the voting will be by the show of hands in a public meeting. Only one candidate for each office will be voted on (the one "called by God"). The voting is therefore almost always unanimous in favor of the candidate.
    • You will be urged not to read any material which is "not faith-promoting,"
    • You will be advised not to associate with "apostates," that is, former Mormons. (You will be asked in your "worthiness" interview about this.)
    • If you are unmarried, you will be encouraged to marry a good Mormon as soon as possible. When you do marry, in a wedding ceremony in the temple, your non-Mormon family members and friends will not be allowed to attend the ceremony, because only "worthy" Mormons are allowed to enter the temple.
    • If you are homosexual, you will be pressured to abandon this "evil" aspect of your nature. If you do not, you will probably not be fully accepted by other church members. If you do not remain celibate, you may be excommunicated.
    • If you are a male over 12 years of age and "worthy" (that is, if you are obedient, attend meetings, do not masturbate NOTES, etc.), you will be ordained to one of the levels of priesthood, and, if you continue to be faithful and obedient, you will gradually advance through the priesthood ranks. If you are female, you will receive the benefits of priesthood authority only indirectly, through your Mormon father or your Mormon husband. The role of the Mormon woman is to be a wife and mother and to obey and honor her priest husband (or father).
    • If you prove yourself to be faithful, hard working and obedient, you will eventually be considered worthy to "receive your endowment" in a Mormon temple. You will not be told in advance exactly what to expect in this lengthy ceremony, except that the details of the ritual are secret (Mormons prefer to say they are just "sacred," but they treat them as though they are secret). As part of that ceremony you will be required to swear a number of oaths, the penalty for violation of which is no longer stated but until 1990 was death by various bloody methods, such as having your throat slit from ear to ear.

    Each of these points are very irritating, and several are inexcusable. (No Guinness?!?! Pfah! Nice talking to ya....)

    So....according to you...how many of these are true. (Careful now, there are sources for these comments...)

  • KingM
    KingM

    From what I've read, there's about 50% misinformation here and about 50% fact. (Sorry, the spaceship one is pure fiction. Are you confusing Mormons with Scientologists, perhaps?)

    There is no official "shunning" policy. That doesn't mean that some family and friends won't react with shock and horror when a Mormon leaves the fold. Sometimes this can, indeed, lead to shunning. Most of the time Mormons are told to continue to be loving to the wayward family member. It's likened to Jesus leaving the flock to find the lost sheep.

    One minor thing. Someone mentioned the super friendly Mormons at Kirtland, Ohio. I suspect this has as much to do with the fact that most Mormons are Westerners, who are, in general more open and friendly with strangers than those in the East. I noticed that quite a bit when I moved from Utah to New England a couple of years ago.

    BTW--thank God we were allowed to associate with nonbelievers. That sounds like the hardest thing about being JW to me. I can't imagine how I would have escaped if I hadn't been.

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Crazy:

    On the Yahoo search engine I typed in "Pre-columbian horses" and received the following link that might be of interest to you...it also talks about Horses in the book of Morman

    http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user/documents/horses.html

    Previously on this thread I said I would repost related info to this topic from an earlier thread...here it is :

    Mormans believe that Jesus visited the "new world" after his resurrection, or so their Book of Morman claims, to which numerous posters have said there is no 'shred' of any evidence as to it being real. I don't know if it's real or not, but I just spent the last hour on the internet researching "Aztecs belief in Christ"...several references came up, including one from the El Paso City College:

    http://www.epcc.edu/ftp/Homes/monicaw/borderlands/17_aztec_beliefs.htm

    Some interesting highlights:

    "Gugumatz, Kukulcan, Viracocha, Votan, Quetzalcoatl - all are names for one god common to Mesoamerican peoples before the arrival of Columbus and other Europeans. The Toltecs, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs and other tribes worshipped many gods they believed directed various aspects of their lives, but archaeologists and historians have concluded that the figure called by these different names is probably one and the same.

    According to legend, Quetzalcoatl, as he was known in Mexico, taught the natives their religion, art and science. Mesoamerican reverence for this god helped prepare the way for Hernn Corts and other European explorers to conquer the New World.

    Quetzalcoatl, like some gods in other mythologies, was part human and part god. Some believe Quetzalcoatl's father was the god Mixcoatl, known as Sky Father of Cloud Serpent. Others see his father as a sun god. The Aztecs believed that his mother, a virgin named Chimalma, became pregnant by swallowing an emerald and them giving birth in the year 1-Reed. Being part human and part god made Quetzalcoatl grow to be very wise and cultured.

    Legends say that Quetzalcoatl was tall and light-skinned, with blonde hair and a beard, in contrast to the natives who were short, dark skinned and dark haired. He is said to have worn a long, flowing robe. Quetzalcoatl was special because he was a god of creation. The Incas believed that he made the sun, moon, stars, and planets. The Mayans believed that with Tepeu, another god, he helped create the earth, mountains, streams and all animals. But his fines creation was man because other forms of life could not think about and worship their creator. ....

    The Mesoamericans believed that Quetzalcoatl lived on earth with the people who worshiped him, teaching religion, moral, art and science. He brought good laws and sound doctrine, as well as prosperity to the people. One Aztec poem says, "Truly with him it began, truly from him it flowed out, from Quetzalcoatl all art and knowledge."

    On earth, Quetzalcoatl was regarded as a saintly and good man, who taught the natives to avoid bad habits and sin. He introduced baptism to the Mesoamericans as a form of penance. Ixtlilxochitl, an Aztec poet, says that Quetzalcoatl reverenced the cross and taught that through fasting, humans could overcome their passions and dishonesty.

    Quetzalcoatl bought beauty to the land and taught through art that beauty could be applied to all surroundings. Mexican scholar Angel Garibay says that all types of beautiful colored singing birds come to the land at the time of Quetzalcoatl's life on earth. He helped build new cities with beautiful houses of silver, green stones, white and colored shell, turquoise, and exquisite feathers.

    As the god of sciences, Quetzalcoatl taught the Aztecs astronomy and gave them their calendar. He taught the natives how to work with metals and also gave them their writing. Thus the people prospered, never lacking for anything including gold, which was so available that it was worthless. Crops were huge and the harvests always prosperous. The people were happy.

    Legends do not agree on why Quetzalcoatl left his people and the land, taking all prosperity with him. Poet Ixtlilxochitl wrote that he left because the people paid very little attention to his teachings.

    He traveled to the east and told the people that he would return in the future. But before he did, the natives would suffer and would be persecuted. At the eastern coast, Quetzalcoatl sailed away on a raft of serpents and the people looked forward to his return.

    It is no wonder, then, that the Indians were not surprised when Hernn Corts arrived in Mexico. When he entered the country in 1519, the Aztecs were living in a "ce catl" or 1-reed year, a potential time for their god Quetzalcoatl to return. Like him, Corts landed ashore on a raft o boat. And Corts was tall, bearded and light-skinned. With him were servants carrying crosses (priests).

    Scholars say Corts began to pose as Quetzalcoatl when he learned about the god. The Spanish possessed powerful weapons, the like of which the Aztecs had never seen, helping the Europeans to appear omnipotent. Many similarities between references to Jesus and Christianity and the Mesoamerican Quetzalcoatl also existed.

    The native belief in Quetzalcoatl became a thorn in the side of the Spanish priests as they attempted to spread their own beliefs among these civilizations. The Spanish admit to finding beautiful books but burned them because "The Devil has got here ahead of us and has shown false Christianity," as Diego de Landa, Bishop of the Yucatn wrote. Vernon W. Mattson in his work "The Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Important Discoveries" says, "In one place alone, they burned 100,000 Mayan books."

    Quetzalcoatl has been called by some "the most influential person of the Americans." Stone engravings referring to him have been dated back to 300 BC, and legends date back over 2,000 years. Today, all Mesoamerican school children study about him and legends about him inspire scholars and archeologists to keep studying these ancient cultures."-end of quote-

    -----------

    Proof - no, but the similarities are incredible, and I just got this from the Yahoo search engine. One last thing...I found the reference to the gold was so abundant that it was worthless an interesting fact, considering that the original manuscripts were supposedly written on sheets of gold.

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Are we talking about the same aztecs who practised human sacrafice???? hardly Christlike....

    I will check out the horse link....find any on cows?? Or steel......

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    That link was interesting but stuck me a little odd. I was under the impression that central and South American indians did not use the wheel but yet here is a picture of a Horse pulling a Cart! I dont know about that. The Book of Mormon just doesnt have the physical backings that the bible has......

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Xander:

    Thanks for your informative 'list'....but can't a list be made of anyone joining any organization. Look how 'sinister' it is to be a Boy Scout:

    If you joined the scouts, you would be expected to:

    • wear a uniform weekly
    • attend meetings
    • Take an oath of alligence
    • Be able to recite the Scout law, oath and motto (scarey)
    • Live up to the Oath of serving God and Country and
      keeping oneself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
    • do numerous service projects, which when completed you get to acquire badges to put on the uniform you are required to wear weekly
    • build a campfire from scratch
    • hike in the mountains a couple of times a year completing tasks to advance to the next level of Scouthood

    and on and on and on............. WHAT A BUNCH OF SICKOS....I think we should look down on them too. Let's put them all in the same bunch..... people who have certain rules to live by....WE HATE THEM (or at least we think they're weird).

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    I dont hate Mormons Double, I just think they are a little Whacked. The Majority of their beleifs Contradict the Bible and Yet they Use the Bible. It doesnt make any sense. I have been preached to many times and everytime it starts off with the same "....the truth, there is but one truth, we are here to be tested..." yada yada yada. They dont get to the YOU WILL BE GOD and HAVE YOUR OWN PLANET till later. Then there is the whole Golden Plates thing and all the bogus traslations yada yada yada. I guess I dont give the whole foundation much credit.

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge
    The Book of Mormon just doesnt have the physical backings that the bible has......

    I never said it did. Although, I must say, just over a hundred years ago it was very popular for "thinking' people who were embracing 'science' to bash the Bible because of the lack of physical evidence for biblical locations. Numerous discoveries have been made in these hundred years that have provided 'proof' of various things. Most recently (a couple of years ago) they discovered the tomb of Caiaphas (the chief judge at Jesus' trial). Up until then, there were doubts as to his existance.

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