by pomegranate 145 Replies latest jw friends
Pomegranate, this is a question that can at best only have very vague answers thanks to the amount of information there is available on the formation of life in it's very early stages.
And I fully agree with AlanF. These same questions, applied to the Goddess, render Her invalid, too!
Pomegranate said:
: Interesting smoke screen.
Oh? Can you explain?
Of course not. That would entail logic not emotion.
: Out of every single discipline of the sciences that freely uses probability mathematics to bring order by average out of the seemingly chaotic, only evolution is to be excused from the scrutinous eye of the Law of numbers?
Did I say that?
I simply said that in order to avoid being hypocritical by holding two standards -- one for your own beliefs and another for everyone else -- you need to apply the same standards consistently. Your avoidance of answering my questions proves that you know you hold double standards. Assuming you were once a JW, like most of us on this board, you have not left off this most distinguishing characteristic of a cultist.
: And your reason why is because I believe God can create something out of nothing?
This is a nonsensical statement.
The fact is that no one can prove whether God exists or not. No one can prove whether life evolved by itself or by God's intervention. People like yourself, who hold beliefs based almost entirely on emotion, often want respect from others for your beliefs. That's why you use the respectability of scientific-sounding arguments. But you don't really believe your own arguments, because you don't really understand the underlying science. Like the Young-Earth Creationists, true believers often simply pretend to make use of hard evidence and logic. But when challenged, they, like you in this thread, avoid direct, clear argument.
: Whatever.
A typical true believer's answer.
AlanF
pomegranate,
hydrogen, helium and small amounts of lithium formed shortly after the big bang. all other elements were created in suns.
about evolution: first of all one should distinguish between the formation of the first self replicating system and then of what evolution is actually all about.
evolution deals with the formation of new species from a common ancestor. there is an infinite number of facts that support this...therefore evolution is not in discussion.
how the first relicating system formed is not clear yet...some steps have been simulated in the lab but certainly not all.
so what exactly would you like to calculate? the probability of the formation of a self replicating system?
Pom siad: Out of every single discipline of the sciences that freely uses probability mathematics to bring order by average out of the seemingly chaotic, only evolution is to be excused from the scrutinous eye of the Law of numbers?
You ask: Did I say that?
No I said that. You said this:
the futility of using probability arguments about something as complicated as evolution
You claim probability mathematics to be futile against the complications of evolution. Poppycock. That's exactly what probability mathematics is for. Things complicated. Yet you want to excuse the complications of evolution from mathematics. That can't be done by an honest researcher. Probabilites are a reality in all disciplines of science, because of complications.
The fact is that no one can prove whether God exists or not.
Fact is, I'm not out to prove God exists, I'm out to question evolutions validity by way of accpeted scientific analysis, which probability mathematics is one valid method.
Assuming you were once a JW, like most of us on this board, you have not left off this most distinguishing characteristic of a cultist.
What would that be? Believing in God? I think you know not the definition of cult.
But when challenged, they, like you in this thread, avoid direct, clear argument.It seems to me I'm presenting clear scientific arguement. It is you that has nothing but opinion behind your statements. Stick to the science can you?
hydrogen, helium and small amounts of lithium formed shortly after the big bang. all other elements were created in suns.
Interesting. Where'd the humongous incomprehensible power source come from to Big Bang everything into existance? A cosmic match and dynomite? Kewl. Who lite the match and made the dynomite? Then you're going to tell me that out of this horrific cataclysmic blast, that the intricate movement of the rotational characteristics of solar systems, galaxies and and other interstellar bodies just happened with such predictable precision?
about evolution: first of all one should distinguish between the formation of the first self replicating system and then of what evolution is actually all about.
I do not understand what you just said.
evolution deals with the formation of new species from a common ancestor. there is an infinite number of facts that support this...therefore evolution is not in discussion.
Evolution deals with the start/origin of life from the minutest to the grandest. Which would mean the formation of what would be considered the first species, which would have to be at the molecular level.
how the first relicating system formed is not clear yet...some steps have been simulated in the lab but certainly not all.
I'm a pretty book bound kind of guy, show me the research you talk about regarding the above.
so what exactly would you like to calculate? the probability of the formation of a self replicating system?The probability of one of the earliest building blocks of life (protein) spontaneously coming together by chance out of a primordial soup consisting of a the fluidic atomic components adhered together into amino acids consisting of both left and right handed variety, with left and right varieties being in number at equalibrium. What are the mathematical probabilities of these units forming the peptide bonds to make a single protein for the smallest theoretical model of a free living organism.
Edited by - pomegranate on 12 October 2002 13:10:52
there are different theories about the big bang...why and how it started is unknown. if you want you can assume that god ignited it. as long as there is no evidence against it its as plausible as any other explanation.
that stars and solar systems form by themself is pretty obvious...you just have to look at planetary nebulas in our galaxy to observe that.
i don't know what you mean with predictable precision. they formed according to the laws of physics. no magic needed.
evolution: i meant there are 2 distinct things...a) the formation of the first cells b) speciation.
you should get a book about molecular biology that has also a chapter on biogenesis (like campbell)..they list the experiments. in short...some show how biomolecules form, others how short RNA strands with replicative ability form, some have used clay as a catalyt to form short polypeptides that have catalytic ability...formation of protobionts (lipids+ peptide form membranes) etc.
since we don't know which replicative molecules formed first (proteins, RNA) and what mechanism they used it is not possible to calculate any probabilities. the probability to form replicative RNA molecules is actually pretty high (but if that was the original mechanism used is speculation).
Edited by - realist on 12 October 2002 15:26:58
pomegranate,
Commendable though your efforts are to wrap your pristine mind around a complicated subject, even I can see the fallacy in you logic; after all, what is the probability of your having been born? Calculate the billions of other apostate sperm that could have met your mother's egg, rather than the one that actually did, and then project that down and back through the numerous generations that led to your birth. Even that well known mad apostate JanH appreciates that much. So, in essense their is zero probability that you were born. Certainly there is zero probability that your arguments will be taken seriously.
Hope that helps.
Know_You
Whoa...how profound.
pomegranate,
Thanks - but I already knew that. :-)
Know_You
Life exists. The probability of it having begun is therefore exactly 1. For it to have begun by natural means all that's needed is for a single self-replicating molecule to have spontaneously formed. This is a spectacularly rare event and has never been observed. Fortunately however, we have a lot of time and space to work with, an effectively infinite amount meaning that the formation of such a molecule is inevitable. Once it forms and begins to self-replicate, natural selection takes over and the rest is mere detail.
For life to have a supernatural origin, we need considerably more than a spontaneously-forming self-replicating molecule. We need a spontaneously forming intelligent, omnipotent being. With infinite time and space, such a being is again mathematically inevitable (as long as such a being is possible in principle), but is almost infinitely less likely to spontaneously form than a single self-replicating molecule.
Therefore while both scenarios are possible, only one is remotely likely. We are here, and the most likely explanation for that is that life originated by natural means.
