Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate 145 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Zechariah

  You could reason this yourself if you had the slightest desire to understand. I've have explained it many times in many ways.

  Bottom line it is not my responsibility nor Gods to make you believe something you don't want to believe.

  You are totally negative. 99% indeed.

  Zechariah
• 

  pomegranate

  God CAN and DOES make people believe if He desires...go ask the Apostle Paul.
• 

  funkyderek

  God CAN and DOES make people believe if He desires...go ask the Apostle Paul.

  Which means, if we don't believe, it's God's fault. He obviously doesn't want us to believe in him and would therefore be unjust in punishing us for not doing so.
• 

  julien

  Estimates are that there there are 100,000,000,000 galaxies in the observable universe, and 100,000,000,000 stars per galaxy. That is 1x10^22 stars. Assuming 1% of stars have planets (there is really no basis for this estimate just chose it randomly), you are still talking about nearly 1x10^20 planets where chemical reactions could take place. All it takes is for a self replicating molecule to appear on one of those. Not to mention that organic molecules have been detected in space, which leads to the possibility reactions can take place in space in certain cases (eg nebular clouds or dust clouds)..

  You can't just think about it from the perspective of earth.

  POMEGRANITE:

  Evolution deals with the start/origin of life from the minutest to the grandest. Which would mean the formation of what would be considered the first species, which would have to be at the molecular level.

  Wrong. In your mind this may be true but if you would bother to actually learn about evolution (for example it is clear you did not read the material that expatbrit quoted) you wouldn't make these incorrect statements.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>Which means, if we don't believe, it's God's fault.<<

  I wouldn't call it fault. I would call it God's choice. He is the potter, creation is the clay.
  
  >>He obviously doesn't want us to believe in him and would therefore be unjust in punishing us for not doing so.<<

  He is more likely exercising His omniscience in foreknowing who's who, doing what He deems worthy with the lumps of clay He the creator created, by His own good judgment.
  
  He is just in doing whatever His righteousness deems to be worthy and true by the Laws and standards He created, and the lives that He created that he bound to physical LAWS. You do not own your life, God does. So if He takes yours, He is only taking back what was His to begin with.

  Just as we are all are terminally bound to the physical Laws of the physical universe without exception, so are we bound to the spiritual Laws of God's judgment without exception, whether we admit it or not.

  Just as we have no say in whether we want to obey gravity or not. Gravity says YOU WILL OBEY and your body does JUST WHAT GRAVITY SAYS. Just as we have no say in whether we eat or not. Your body says YOU WILL EAT and you do JUST AS YOUR BODY SAYS. You have NO CHOICE.

  It is God's choice. All of it.

  That's what I believe.
• 

  pomegranate

  In your mind this may be true but if you would bother to actually learn about evolution (for example it is clear you did not read the material that expatbrit quoted) you wouldn't make these incorrect statements.

  I have read evolution positions and flatly disagree. "Incorrect statements" is your OPINION and not fact. Here's a few stupid folks that agree with my "incorrect statements":

  C. Everett Koop

  • Creationist

  • Former Surgeon General of the United States of America

  • Former editor of The Journal of Pediatric Surgery

  • Recipient of at least 8 honorary degrees stemming from his surgical expertise

  • Member of more than a dozen medical societies worldwide

  • Former president of the Surgical section of the American Academy of Pediatric Surgery

  • Former Professor at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.

  Kurt P. Wise

  • Creationist

  • Geology

  • Ph.D. and M.A. in geology from Harvard University

  • B.A. with honors in geophysical sciences from the University of Chicago

  • Former student of Professor Stephen Jay Gould

  • Author of numerous papers regarding origins

  • Member: Geological Society of America

  • Director of Center for Origins Research and Education (CORE) at Bryan College, Dayton, Tennessee, U.S.A.

  John R. Meyer

  • Creationist

  • Zoologist / Biologist

  • Ph.D. in Zoology, University of Iowa

  • Undergraduate degrees in chemistry, biology, and Bible

  • Director, Van Andel Research Center

  • Taught Physiology and Biophysics at University of Louisville, Kentucky

  • Established Research Lab at the Brain Research Institute Center, UCLA

  • Research in meteors and stalactite formation

  • Has been a student, teacher or researcher in twenty different institutions of higher learning

  George T. Javor

  • Creationist

  • Biochemistry

  • Ph.D. in biochemistry from Columbia University, New York, U.S.A.

  • Post-doctoral studies at Rockefeller University

  • B.S. in chemistry from Brown University

  • Author of over 40 technical papers and abstracts

  • Professor of Biochemistry, School of Medicine, Loma Linda University, California

  E. Theo Agard

  • Creationist

  • Medical physics

  • Ph.D. in physics from the University of Toronto, Canada

  • M.S. in physics from the Middlesex Hospital Medical School at the University of London

  • B.S. (hons) first class in physics from the University of London

  • Health Physics Society national board of directors since 1993

  • Former director of medical physics at Flower Hospital Oncology Center, Ohio, U.S.A.

  Robert H. Eckel

  • Creationist

  • Medical research

  • M.D. from the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine

  • B.S. cum laude in bacteriology from the University of Cincinnati

  • Author of over 80 research papers and 17 book chapters

  • Recipient of 20 research awards

  • Reviewer for 50 medical journals

  • Member: American Society for Clinical Investigation

  • Member: The Association of American Physicians

  • Chairman: Nutrition Committee, American Heart Association

  • Holds positions as professor of medicine, professor of physiology and biophysics, and program director for General Clinical Research Center at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center

  ...and more and more. I'll post others if need be.

  The point of the above is quite simple. Just because someone doesn't accept, believe or comprehend the evolutionary hypothesis, does NOT make them stupid, uneducated, not understanding science or being "incorrect." There a hundreds of thousands of well educated, brilliant, highly intelligent and successful people who believe in God and creation just like the above and I could list way more with their credentials that ANYONE could verify quite easily.

  So, anyone that holds out the position that if you do not accept/understand evolution, simply means you are stupid, uneducated or inept at science is indeed sitting willfully in the fog of their own stupidity. The proof is in the examples of the above individuals.

  Edited by - pomegranate on 17 October 2002 15:21:13
• 

  rem

  Pomegranate,

  I happen to know some incredibly intelligent Jehovah's Witnesses. Just because a person is intelligent doesn't mean he is also intellectually honest.

  rem
• 

  pomegranate

  Oh. So you're claiming intellectual dishonesty for anyone that refutes evolution?

  Dishonesty is a trait for the purpose of selfish gain.

  What does anyone have to gain by denying evolution and siding with creation? Nothing but ridicule (as can be seen here on this forum).

  What does anyone have to gain by denying creation and siding with evolution? The illusion of freedom from God (selfish gain).

  More "intellectually dishonest" people:

  Donald Chittick

  • Creationist

  • Physical chemist

  • Ph.D. in physical chemistry from Oregon State University (1960)

  • B.S. from Willamette University, Salem, Oregon (1954)

  • Author of The Puzzle of Ancient Man and The Controversy: Roots of the Creation-Evolution Conflict

  • Awards include Outstanding Educators of America, American Men and Women of Science, "Who's Who in the West"

  • Holds several U.S. and foreign patents

  • Member: American Chemical Society

  • Seminar speaker on origins topics

  • Formerly associate professor of chemistry at the University of Puget Sound

  • Formerly chairman of the division of Natural Sciences at George Fox University in Oregon

  Jay L. Wile

  • Creationist

  • Nuclear chemistry

  • Ph.D. in nuclear chemistry from the University of Rochester in New York

  • B.S. in chemistry from the University of Rochester in New York

  • Awarded Outstanding Teacher Award at the University of Chicago

  • Former assistant professor of chemistry at Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana (1992-95)

  • Former instructor of science at Indiana Academy of Science, Muncie, Indiana (1990-92)

  • Member: American Chemical Society

  • Member: American Physical Society

  • Member: American Association for the Advancement of Science

  Charles B. Thaxton

  • Creationist

  • Chemist

  • Ph.D. in Chemistry from Iowa State University

  • Postdoctoral Fellow at Harvard University (2 years), history and philosophy of science

  • Postdoctoral appointment in molecular biology laboratory at Brandeis University (3 years)

  • Director of Curriculum Research of the Foundation for Thought and Ethics in Dallas

  • Staff member of the Julian Center in Julian, California.

  Robert V. Gentry

  • Creationist

  • Physicist and chemist

  • D.Sc. (honorary) from Columbia Union College

  • M.S. in Physics from University of Florida

  • Graduate work at Georgia Institute of Technology

  • Often considered the world's foremost authority on radiohalos

  • Former Guest Scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratories, Atomic Energy Commission

  • Published scientific papers in Nature, Science, Applied Physics Letters, Earth and Planetary Science Letters, Annual Review of Nuclear Science, etc.

  Glen W. Wolfrom

  • Creationist

  • Animal Science

  • Ph.D. in Animal Husbandry from University of Missouri, 1976

  • M.S. in Animal Industries from Southern Illinois University, 1972

  • B.S. with honors in Animal Science from Western Illinois University, 1969

  • Author of numerous publications

  • Member: American Society of Animal Science (ASAS)

  • Member: American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS)

  • Member: Council for Agricultural Science and Technology (CAST)

  • Holder of numerous patents

  • Formerly Research Scientist for Pitman-Moore, Inc. / Mallinckrodt Veterinary

  • Senior Clinical Research Scientist for Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica, Inc.

  Steven A. Austin

  • Creationist

  • Geologist

  • Ph.D. from Pennsylvania State University, doctoral dissertation on coal formation

  • M.S. in geology from San Jose State University

  • B.S. in geology from the University of Washington

  • Consulting geologist for government and industry

  • Member: Geological Society of America

  • Member: American Association of Petroleum Geologists

  • Member: the Society for Sedimentary Geology

  • Member: the International Association of Sedimentologists

  • Author of numerous papers including publication in the peer-reviewed journal International Geology Review (1999)

  The intellectually dishonest? rem, I believe you are being slanderous and defamatory.

  Edited by - pomegranate on 17 October 2002 18:22:11
• 

  rem

  Pomegranate,

  Can you demonstrate that none of these men are Christian? If not, then it is evident that the judgement of these men is clouded by their religious faith when it comes to this topic. Thier conclusion is not unbiased. There are millions of Christians, Hindu's, Buddhists, Jews, etc. who are intellectually honest enough to accept the facts of Evolution and realize that their faith in their religion is just that... faith. They realize that their respective religion's creation myths are just that... myths.

  Yes, the men you have cited are intellectually dishonest.

  rem
• 

  pomegranate

  Can you demonstrate that none of these men are Christian?

  My demonstration was to refute the accusation that defying the evolution hypothesis in no way constitutes stupidity or lack of intelligence as has been insinuated on this forum over and over again. Some of the above are NOT Christian. Some just believe in God.

  If not, then it is evident that the judgement of these men is clouded by their religious faith when it comes to this topic.

  How is it that evolutionists are not the ones who's judgment is clouded and being "intellectually dishonest" by denying the simplistic ACCEPTED formulas of probability mathematics? I believe the intellectual scam comes from the ones who deny the simple numbers. Since the discovery of DNA and RNA, there are even documented evolutionists that could no longer accept and hold on to their former BELIEFS because these two elements wholey undermine the theory that now appears no better than Swiss cheese.

  Thier conclusion is not unbiased.

  If their conclusion is based on the facts of the science, then their conclusion is based on the FACTS of science.

  There are millions of Christians, Hindu's, Buddhists, Jews, etc. who are intellectually honest enough to accept the facts of Evolution and realize that their faith in their religion is just that... faith. They realize that their respective religion's creation myths are just that... myths.

  Life is not faith. It is proof.

  Yes, the men you have cited are intellectually dishonest.

  As I said before: "you are being slanderous and defamatory."

  Edited by - pomegranate on 17 October 2002 19:45:16