The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Albert Barne's Commentary on John 20:28:

  My Lord and my God - In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons:

  1. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment.

  2. The language was addressed to Jesus himself - Thomas ...said unto him.

  3. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him. Compare Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8-9.

  4. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? It was this declaration, and this only. If this was a mere exclamation of surprise, what proof was it that Thomas believed? Before this he doubted. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

  5. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and God, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel.

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 2 December 2002 5:9:1
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  gumby

  May I but in,

  I heard Jesus and God were identical twins except they had different fathers......any truth to this?
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  JosephMalik

  In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ,

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Albert Barnes does not even know that the term God is not a name. The rest of his comments are equally as bad.

  I covered these texts in this thread a few pages ago and no one has been able to refute such comments yet. What I really liked about Barnes comments is that he believes that if his mis-guided reasoning is wrong then Thomas is to blame. Notice what he said:

  If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness,

  This is what some may call full of it. Sounds like the WT's Govening Body.

  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  "All authority has been given to me." (Mt 28:18)
  "The Father ... has given all things into his hand." (Jn 3:35)
  "God has made this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ." (Ac 2:36)
  "Him God has exalted ... to be Prince and Savior." (Ac 5:31)
  "He raised him ... far above all principality and power and might and dominion." (Eph 1:21)
  "God also has highly exalted him." (Php 2:9)
  "Angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him." (1 Pe 3:22)

  I believe each one of those Verses are describing what the Father did for Jesus after Jesus was Resurrected, which was in fulfillment of Jesus' Prayer for the Father to RESTORE the glory that Jesus had as The Word/Logos before the world began.

  All of those things needed to be RESTORED to Jesus because when Jesus became a Human, Jesus became "a little lower than angels" and Jesus had "emptied

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Did Jesus have all authority as the Word or was He still under His Fathers authority?

  Why is it necessary to give Jesus something or make him Lord and Christ if He is already God and the very same Being in fact?

  Did Jesus raise himself from death or did God do that?

  How is it that God needed to exalt Himself?

  Are not Angels and authorities and powers always made subject to God?

  The glory that needed to be restored to the executed Christ that once existed as the Word, was His very life. It was this life as the Word that our Lord needed to be raised. This life was all contained in the one Being that emptied himself and became human. That is really what our Lord prayed for. From that point on He could raise the human body offered in sacrifice Himself as this Word when restored had life in Him. This is the only example in scripture of any Being or life form legally acquiring and having two distinct natures. This required the Fathers permission as it was not something the Word could have done on His own.

  The verses you show demonstrate clearly that this Word is not equal to the Father but has been appointed to serve in the capacities shown.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 2 December 2002 11:17:14

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 2 December 2002 11:24:21
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  SwedishChef

  Joseph, all of Albert Barnes' points were completely valid, I'm sorry if you don't want to see it.

  I have two questions for you:
  (1) In these passages you quoted, was God sharing glory with Jesus?
  (2) How many creators are there?
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  LucidSky

  Where in Scripture does it say that God is three persons in one being?
  The Shema says that God is one, so is there any clarification of the Shema in the NT?

  Also just curious.
  When a Christian refers to God as 'Father', is he/she refering to all God-parts or just the Father-part?
  And should he/she pray to each God-part in turn to be fair, or 1 or 2 or all of them depending on the situation?
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  herk

  LucidSky,

  Where in Scripture does it say that God is three persons in one being?

  • "No one can serve four masters; for either he will hate the one and love the others, or he will be devoted to the three and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24)
  • "Not everyone who says to us, 'Lord, Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost who are in heaven will enter." (Matthew 7:21)

  The Shema says that God is one, so is there any clarification of the Shema in the NT?

  • "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouths of God." (Matthew 4:4)
  • "Make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the thrones of God." (Matthew 5:34)

  When a Christian refers to God as 'Father', is he/she refering to all God-parts or just the Father-part?

  • "Your wills be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (Matthew 6:10)
  • "We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy Third of God." (John 6:69)

  And should he/she pray to each God-part in turn to be fair, or 1 or 2 or all of them depending on the situation?

  • "Your Father, Son and Holy Ghost who see what is done in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:4)
  • "Close your door and pray to your Father, Son and Holy Ghost who are in secret, and your Father, Son and Holy Ghost who see what is done in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:6)
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  JosephMalik

  I have two questions for you:
  (1) In these passages you quoted, was God sharing glory with Jesus?
  (2) How many creators are there?

  SwedishChef,

  Barnes may have good information on other subjects and I use it if appropriate but I know that he had no idea of how to explain these since I am also familiar with this subject.

  (1) Glory? Do you know what that means? Do have some specific text in mind? Well here is one:

  Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

  Glory was received by the Son from the Father. Is this sharing in the wrong direction? Does this clear up who is the greater and who is not? The Son also receives Glory in His own right. All this is part of Gods plan for the redemption of man. The Son in time returns all such mankind to God when the Kingdom has restored us to the status man should have attained before sin entered into the world.

  Now if you think you can spring these texts on me then think again.

  Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

  Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

  We are not discussing idolatry here such as graven images or someone polluting Gods name are we? We are discussing His Son and a divine arrangement under a covenant much better than the one in which such direction was given. So please answer and explain yourself and tell my why you asked this question and what were you trying to prove?

  (2) How many creators are there?

  I already answered this in this thread more than once. The Word did not create the universe or planet. He was only involved in the creation of mankind that makes up its foundation and given authority over it. This was done under the direction of the God that this Word was with.

  Joseph
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  hooberus

  Upon looking throgh some of the posts on this thread I came across a statement by JosephMalik

  "Please note that Hebrews 1:6 is a quotation from Deuteronomy 32:43 in the Septuagint: "Let all the angels of God worship him." The angels were to worship God at the time when he would cause the nations to be glad with his people. That time is related to the coming of Christ, as stated, when God "again brings the firstborn [Christ] into the world." So, is the writer of Hebrews telling the angels to worship Christ at that time? Not really. The angels in Hebrews 1 belong to God. The angels of God are instructed to worship "him," meaning God the Father. Please be careful how you read."

  "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

  The "him" in Hebrews 1:6 clearly refers to Christ. The whole context of Hebrews 1 is showing the superiority of Christ to the angels. Part of this is by showing that the angels worship Christ. Please be careful how you read!
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  SwedishChef

  Joseph,whether you'd like to admit or not, those verses you quoted in Isaiah refute your belief.

  The fact is, from passages like these, we get a clear understanding the Jehovah is a jealous God who will not share His glory with another.

  Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

  This not talking about graven images only, the Lord Jehovah says He will not share glory with another; then he says neither to graven images. He speaks of graven images separatly. The fact is, a person reading this verse for what it says will come to the conclusion that Jehovah is the only God who is worthy of praise.

  Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

  This verse reinforces it. There many other like it.

  If I'm getting this right, you also believe that there are two creators. One who created the universe, and one who created mankind. I would just like you to find one verse which says that.
  Bible teaching is there is ONE God who created EVERYTHING.
  Read the Genesis accound of creation. The same God created Everything.

  Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

  There are many other verses like this one also. Jehovah says He was alone in creating the universe.

  John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
  1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

  Collossians 1:16 For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
  17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

  These two passages say that Jesus created EVERYTHING, and there would be NOTHING if it weren't for Him. Now compare this to the passage in Isaiha. Jehovah is the one who created EVERYTHING ALONE.

  John 1:1 is proven to be a correct translation not only because scholars say it is, but because it fits in perfect context with Scripture.