I still see no point in discussing anything with Herk because what I say will probably just be twisted around and turned into something I didn't say.
Herk never even did respond to my important question asking whether or not the Scriptures that say "Calling on the Lord" and "Calling on Yahweh" were talking about Prayer, and if they weren't talking about Prayer, what were they talking about?
In fact, I don't think I have seen anyone comment on that question.
I would have thought Herk would have commented on those Verses, after all, if Herk is correct about everyone who prays to Jesus is a false teacher, then those Verses would prove that the Apostle Paul and several other Christians were false teachers, and that would be a huge discovery!
Obviously, there are some people here who have not read up on Johannes Greber, the spirit-medium, either that or they just don't care.
So, one of Satan's demons comes to Johannes Greber and tells Greber how the Bible should REALLY be Translated, and some people on this Forum seem to think that the demon was telling Greber the truth about the Bible.
Sure.
Am I being "too hard" on Greber?
What does the Bible say about contacting "spirits"?
Deuteronomy 18:10: There shall not be found with you anyone who makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices sorcery, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer,
Deuteronomy 18:11: or a charmer, or one who consults with a spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deuteronomy 18:12: For whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh: and because of these abominations Yahweh your God does drive them out from before you.
Leviticus 19:31: "'Don't turn to those who are spirit mediums, nor to the wizards. Don't seek them out, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh your God.
Leviticus 20:6: "'The person that turns to those who are spirit mediums, and to the wizards, to play the prostitute after them, I will even set My face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
1st Chronicles 10:13: So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against Yahweh, because of the Word of Yahweh, which he didn't keep; and also because he asked counsel of one who was a spirit medium, to inquire thereby,
1st Chronicles 10:14: and didn't inquire of Yahweh: therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.
I will post some more things that Greber said the "spirits" told him about the Bible, in his book, Communication With the Spirit World, and then you can decide if the demons were giving Greber correct and truthful information or not:
Page 6: "If, therefore, we, as faithful servants of God, or at any rate, as honest seekers after the truth, try to get into touch with the world of good spirits we are committing no sin, but rather, obeying one of God's commandments; an important commandment, for only through contact with the world of good spirits can we arrive at the truth. There is no other way."
According to his book, the first question Greber asked the spirit was, "why is it that Christianity seems no longer to exert any influence upon the people of today?"
The spirit told Greber that the teachings of Jesus can no longer be found in the New Testament documents as these have been tampered with, and on Page 19 of his book:
Page 19: "What you now have are mutilated copies.... Those who were guilty of these mutilations have been punished by God."
When someone present at the meeting asked specifically who did this supposed mutilating of the New Testament, the spirit didn't produce any historical evidence but simply said "that does not concern you" and that it was sufficient for them to know that God has punished the "culprits". The "culprits" started to change the texts of the New Testament as early as the first century according to the spirit (again, no evidence was offered to support this remarkable claim was given by the spirit, nor did Greber require any). Thus, the true teachings of Christ have been obscured for the past two thousand years. The spirit said the time would come when the teachings of Christ would be "restored" to mankind "in their full purity and truth." (p. 20) This spirit of course had arrived on the scene to help set the record straight after 2,000 years. Apparently, the gates of hell prevailed against the Church for 2,000 years more or less and Greber was privileged to receive the real truth from these "spirits from heaven."
Greber asked the spirit for an example where the New Testament was changed to promote false doctrines and was told John 20:28. The spirit said it should record Thomas saying to Jesus, "My Lord and my Master" instead of "My Lord and my God" as it exists in all known Greek texts. (See Page 21 of Greber's Book) Thus the first supposed false doctrine corrected by this spirit, like the one who contacted John S. Thompson, was concerning the Deity of Christ.
Greber got together weekly with a family who approached him and wanted someone to teach them the Scriptures. Spiritist manifestations resulted starting with their fourth meeting. (See Pages 31-32 of Greber's Book) What happened first was this: Greber began to expound upon a Scripture by teaching the usual interpretation given among "Christian authorities" when one of the boys present "became inexplicably excited" and said to Greber that his interpretation was incorrect and that he was "compelled" to give him the true one. Greber wrote:
Page 33: "With that, he uttered the sentences which had been inspired in him for the elucidation of this passage of the Bible."
The boy then said, "I must write". When asked what he wanted to write the boy said that he didn't know exactly what, but that he was being "compelled" to write by an "irresistible power". The boy wrote "rapidly" once given pencil and paper. At the end of the paper it was signed by the spirit that dictated it to him-- "Celsior". While the group was discussing this, the boy's brother said he could no longer attend the meetings as he could not keep his head still. It was being turned from side to side "against his will".
Greber was informed later by the spirit at his other weekly meeting with the first boy in the city what these experiences at his parish meant. The spirit told him:
Pages 36-37: "That which you saw in your parish confirms what you are learning from me here. You will witness more. Have no fear for the boy who cannot keep his head still; we are working on him and you will see how the different 'mediums' are prepared for their duties....
You have there at present two kinds of mediums undergoing a course of preparation at the hands of the spirit-world. One is a so-called 'inspirational medium' into whom certain thoughts, determined by the spirit, are instilled with such force, that the medium's own thoughts are completely expelled from him, leaving him wholly within the spirit's power. The medium not only receives all the thoughts from the spirit, but is compelled to write them down or utter them, retaining the full use of his faculties meanwhile....
The other medium who has not yet entered into activity is in the first stage of preparation. I mean the boy who could not keep his head still at your last meeting and who was frightened as a consequence. He will become a 'speaking medium'; his own spirit will be expelled from his body and the latter will be occupied by another spirit which will speak through it. This state is called a "trance".... The development of a 'full trance' or a 'deep trance' medium is not a pleasant sight, but it is necessary.... In order that the medium's mother may not be frightened unnecessarily by what takes place, it will be best for her to keep away from the meetings for the time being."
What did the demon tell Greber about God?
God is not Omnipresent as traditionally believed. (Page 261)
God exists as a space bound entity. He has to travel through space to "visit" other parts of the universe. (Page 261)
God is not Omniscient in the traditional sense either. God does not know the future. God apparently is not only space-bound in a body, but is time-bound as well. This would mean God did not create the space/time of this universe but is subject to it Himself. (Page 262)
The demon tells Greber that spirits come in male and female. (Page 267)
The demon then tells Greber that since there are males and females in the spirit-world, there is sex in the spirit-world! (Page 282)
The demon also said that demons or fallen angels can and will be saved. This would occur after a process of spiritual evolution by reincarnation. Even Lucifer [Satan] will be saved and be like his "brother" Jesus. (Page 297) It was his brother Jesus who volunteered among God's angels to make the first attempt to save mankind. In fact, He "begged" God to be the first. If He failed, God would've sent other spirits until the mission was accomplished. (Pages 297-298)
The demon said that angels came to earth in a materialized human form, impregnating women on earth prior to the Flood. (Page 302) Joseph was a deep trance medium that a holy spirit used to impregnate Mary. This is how Jesus was conceived! (Pages 311-312) Jesus Himself had mediumistic powers. (Page 320)
On Matthew 27:52-53 that speaks of an apparent resurrection during an earthquake at Jesus' death the demon said that this was another example of the text of the New Testament being falsified. (Page 348) After His resurrection, Jesus materialized in human form.
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Also, Herk, your comments about the Trinity being Pagan are not a real good argument at all. I was dealt that lame argument for 18+ years in the Watchtower, so if you think I haven't had that beat into my brains, you're dead wrong.
Let's see here...
Satan knows the true nature of God.
Satan tries to deceive everyone and makes counterfeits of everything that is Holy, so why wouldn't he make counterfeit "Trinities"?
Otherwise, why would Satan and his Pagan followers be so fascinated with Trinities?
Why isn't Satan fascinated with making false gods with two persons or four persons? Why is he so fascinated with making false gods into THREE persons?
You might as well say that the Flood of Noah is Pagan too because several Pagans believed in a worldwide flood.
Also, as other people have posted way back near the beginning of this Thread, there are Pagan beliefs that are very, very close to the Gospel of Jesus.
So, I guess you would say that the Gospel of Jesus is false and Pagan too?
And, once again, Herk completely adds words to my mouth that I never spoke, about 1 John 5:7.
I will make this extremely clear, so clear that I don't even think Herk can twist it around:
IF 1 John 5:7 was NOT written by the Apostle John, it SHOULD NOT be included in the Bible!
IF someone added it later, God and the Bible CONDEMNS that person!
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 11 December 2002 6:43:16
