The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

UnDisfellowshipped

DakotaRed (Lew),
I do thank you for your reply.
I can definitely understand and respect your beliefs and I would never condemn you for your Bible-based beliefs.
However, I think it is completely un-Christian for Herk/fjtoth to judge and condemn me, trinitarians, and the Apostle Paul and Stephen for calling on Jesus.
With those cartoons, Herk said that trinitarians are false teachers because they pray to Jesus and that trinitarians are going to Hell.
Well then I suppose I will be meeting Paul and Stephen and the other First Century Christians in the blazes of Hell.
In reply to your comments about John 17:3:
You are correct, that Verse does say that the Father is the Only True God.
But does that exclude Jesus?
As LittleToe pointed out, Jesus said this while on Earth in the "Form of a Servant" after He had emptied Himself.
Also, what about this following Verses:
1st Corinthians 8:6: yet to us there is One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and One Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through Him.
Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.
Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the Same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him.
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
Acts 10:36: The word which he sent to the children of Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ -- He is Lord of all --
1st Corinthians 15:47: The first man is of the Earth, made of dust. The Second Man is the Lord from Heaven.
Ephesians 4:5: One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism,
See, it says that Jesus is the ONE LORD and that it is the SAME LORD who is LORD OF ALL.
Now, if the Father being called "the One True God" or "the Only True God" excludes Jesus from being God, then that also means when Jesus is called "the One Lord", that would exclude the Father from being the True Lord!
However, we know that the Father is also the True Lord by reading the following Verses:
Acts 4:24: When they heard it, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, "O Lord, You are God, who made the Heaven, the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them;
Acts 4:26: The kings of the Earth take a stand, And the rulers take council together, Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'
Acts 17:24: The God who made the world and all things in it, He, being Lord of Heaven and Earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands,
So, as you can see, when the Scripture says that Jesus is the One True Lord and the One True Master, that does not exclude the Father from being the One True Lord.
However, if you were to conclude that Jesus is the ONLY LORD to the exclusion of the Father, then that means there are TWO LORDS, while the Scriptures state several times that there is only ONE LORD.
So then, why should the Father being called the "One True God" or the "Only True God" exclude Jesus?
Well, it doesn't according to these Verses:
John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 20:28: Thomas answered Him, "The Lord of me and The God of me!"
Romans 9:5: of whom are the fathers, and from whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.
1st John 5:20: We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know Him who is True, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God, and Eternal Life.
Titus 2:13: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
Also, check out these Verses which Yahweh (Jehovah) spoke:
Isaiah 45:22: Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:23: By Myself have I sworn, the Word is gone forth from My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
And then the Apostle Paul quotes this Verse and applies it to the Lord and God:
Romans 14:11: For it is written, "'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to Me every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess to God.'"
But then, Paul quotes this Verse and applies it to Jesus!:
Philippians 2:10: that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in Heaven, those on Earth, and those under the Earth,
Philippians 2:11: and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So, who was The Lord and God in Romans 14:11? The Father or Jesus? Or both? My answer is both.
Also, I didn't see anyone post any comments about whether or not the following Scriptures are talking about PRAYER (if this is not prayer, what is it?):
Acts 2:21: It will be, that whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved.'
Acts 22:16: Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the Name of the Lord.'
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
1st Corinthians 1:2: to the assembly of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours
1st Corinthians 1:9: God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord. (How can we have "fellowship" or "communication" with Jesus without praying to Him?)
1st Peter 1:17: If you call on Him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, pass the time of your living as strangers here in reverent fear
And, last but definitely not least:
2nd Corinthians 12:8: Concerning this thing, I begged the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
2nd Corinthians 12:9: He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me.
2nd Corinthians 12:10: Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong.
Were those Verses talking about Prayer or not?
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 8 December 2002 23:10:30
UnDisfellowshipped

Also, some people have pointed out some very good points, which I don't think have been commented on, so I will post them again here:
Jesus Christ is Omnipresent (Everywhere at the Same Time):
Matthew 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there I am in the midst of them."
Matthew 28:20: ...Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
John 3:13: No one has ascended into Heaven, but He who descended out of Heaven, the Son of Man, who is in Heaven. (Not all Translations read the same)
Ephesians 4:10: He who descended is the One who also ascended far above all the Heavens, that He might fill all things. (This is the Verse I was talking about a few pages back, DakotaRed, about Jesus filling all things)
Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
Hebrews 1:3: His Son is the Radiance of His Glory, the Very Image of His Substance, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High
The Bible says that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the ONLY ONE who can read the hearts of people!
But, the Bible says that Jesus Christ can read hearts and is Omniscient (Knows All Things):
1st Kings 8:39: then hear in Heaven, Your dwelling-place, and forgive, and do, and render to every man according to all his ways, whose heart You know; (for You (Yahweh), even You only, know the hearts of all the children of men;)
Revelation 2:23: I (Jesus) will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
Psalm 139:1: Yahweh, You have searched me, And You know me.
Psalm 139:2: You know my sitting down and my rising up. You perceive my thoughts from afar.
Luke 5:22: But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts?
John 16:30: Now we know that You know all things, and don't need for anyone to question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God."
John 21:17: He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you have affection for Me?" Peter was grieved because He asked him the third time, "Do you have affection for Me?" He said to Him, "Lord, You know everything. You know that I have affection for You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.
John 2:24: But Jesus didn't trust Himself to them, because He knew everyone,
John 2:25: and because He didn't need for anyone to testify concerning man; for He Himself knew what was in man.
John 6:64: But there are some of you who don't believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn't believe, and who it was who would betray Him.
DakotaRed

In reply to your comments about John 17:3:
You are correct, that Verse does say that the Father is the Only True God.
But does that exclude Jesus?

As LittleToe pointed out, Jesus said this while on Earth in the "Form of a Servant" after He had emptied Himself.

UnD, believe it or not, I respect your view more than I do ones like SwedishChef. I cannot account for Herk and Fjtoth anymore than I expect you to account for for SwedishChef. Personally, I find all the cartoons to be amusing.
As to your comments on John 17:3, how could it not exclude Jesus? Could God, even a God, ever forget they really are God? He had already commented things as the glory he had with the Father, the Father teaching him what to say and do and finishing his Fathers works. So, it is only obvious to me that he knew well what position he held in heaven prior to coming down to the earth as a human.
To say that he emptied himself of being God and yet could still claim another as the only true God, yet still has shown that he knew well the position he held prior, would make it a falsehood. Not a parable nor symbolic nor even a hidden message, but a plain and simpe falsehood. Jesus did not speak falsely and the Father is incapable of lying too (Hebrews 6:18) So, it has to be truthful. If one of the disciples or another had said it, yes, I might be inclined to question it or at least scrutinize it more. But, that is Jesus himself speaking. Above all others, he alone should kow whether or not he is God or even equal to God, I feel.
I have read accounts where trinitarians have tried to rip that scripture apart to justify the trinity, but it still remains that every single translation I have looked at words it exactly the same. While, there is questions as to the correct translation of John 1:1, there appears to be none as to John 17:3. Every single transaltion I have states those exact words, "the only true God," in it.
I kow too that you, much like me, have not read every single reply on this out of control thread, but all the scriptures you posted have been dealt with. As for Thomas, the JW view of it being an exclamtion doesn't fly. But, if you look up the meaning of the word theos used there, it was originally used of many in the Bible. Original Greek had no capitalization nor punctuation, it was up to the reader to supply it. So, who else but a scribe or a translator decided it should be capitalized there and not in other places it is used for other humans? It was a title, not a name and was used for judges, even satan and others in authority. So, Thomas could very easily call Jesus his god as one having authority over him.
Remember, the context of John 20 and Thomas wasn't whether Jesus was God, but that he was really Jesus, resurrected from the dead. John does clarify his meaning just a couple verses later with;
31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Would John record he was actually God, yet just three short verses later, say he is the Son? Wouldn't it have been more consistent for John to just have said he was God?
The scriptures cited in Isaiah have been discussed before. If you go back and read the context, it shows that the discussion was in comparison to the false pagan gods around Israel, not a claim of being totally alone. BUt, some intersting things are said about creation in Hebrews;
Hebrews 1:1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Here, we see God spoke through prophets in the past and has again spoke through another, his Son, Jesus. We also see that although God is credited with creating the earth and all things, it was through Jesus that he did it. I find it odd also that many Bibles used by trinitarians cross reference the wisdom account of Proverbs 8 with John 1:1, yet also deny that the wisdom spoken of as working alongside of God and being created by God, is not Jesus. (SwedishChef, don't even bother coming back with saying wisdom is a female because the Hebrew word used is a feminine noun, dealt with that too many times).
In the final end though, does a belief in or against the trinity really matter that much? While I enjoy these discussions form time to time, to air our views and shake up the cobwebs in my aging noggin, Jesus spoke of and taught love of God, neighbor and brother. His new commandment at John 13:34; 35 was to love, not to believe in a triune God. The vehemency of some trinitarians towards those of us who do not accept it does little to comfort me or encourage me to share in any worship with them.
So far as I have seen, you have been civil and I appreciate that.
One final scripture lifted from the KJV which is the only Bible some wish to follow;
Revelation 3:14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Again, who was giving the revelation to John at Patmos? Jesus!
Lew W
Edited by - DakotaRed on 9 December 2002 4:1:41
UnDisfellowshipped

Lew,
Thank you once again for your kind reply.
You said:
Jesus spoke of and taught love of God, neighbor and brother. His new commandment at John 13:34; 35 was to love
How very true!
Here are some Scriptures I really love:
1st John 4:7: Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1st John 4:8: The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
1st John 4:9: By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His Only Begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
1st John 4:10: In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the Propitiation for our sins.
1st John 4:11: Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
1st John 4:12: No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1st John 4:13: By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1st John 4:14: We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1st John 4:15: Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1st John 4:16: We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1st John 4:17: By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
1st John 4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
1st John 4:19: We love, because He first loved us.
1st John 4:20: If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1st John 4:21: And this Commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
I send my Christian love to you Lew -- from the posts I have seen, you are definitely a loving and kind follower of Christ and I am very happy to call you my Christian Brother!
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 9 December 2002 5:26:19
herk

SwedishChef,
Your list says a lot about why you don't understand the Bible, even though you think you do.
What the Bible says:
What Herk Reads
I've spent many pages explaining what I believe. Your list shows you didn't understand even half of what I wrote, though it was all spelled out in plain language. It's beyond me why someone like you, who has such difficulty understanding English as it's now written, would choose the KJV as your principal source of Bible understanding.
Herk
herk

UnDisfellowshipped,
You wrote:
With those cartoons, Herk said that ... trinitarians are going to Hell.
Your statement betrays, not only a lack of a sense of humour, but also very little experience in understanding the point of political and religious cartoons.
Herk
JosephMalik

Also, some people have pointed out some very good points, which I don't think have been commented on, so I will post them again here:
Jesus Christ is Omnipresent (Everywhere at the Same Time):
Matthew 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there I am in the midst of them."
Matthew 28:20: ...Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
John 3:13: No one has ascended into Heaven, but He who descended out of Heaven, the Son of Man, who is in Heaven. (Not all Translations read the same)
Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
Undisfellowshipped,
That Jesus is aware of individuals and events does not make Jesus or God for that matter Omnipresent. How such things are done are detailed in scriptures. Angels spoke for God like the one in the burning bush and the use of such angels actually proves the opposite. Your statement that Jesus is Omnipresent is not truth and such words are not supported by the Faith or included in the message we are obligated to teach others. Here are but a few examples.
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Exodus 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Information is both gathered and dispensed using intermediaries such as angels thus words like
Omnipresent have no support in scripture and in fact are not found in it. Take John 3:13 that you used as proof for example.
13 NIVUS No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven the Son of Man. {13 Some manuscripts <Man, who is in heaven>}
You have no proof for this conceptual thought either. You offered a deception not truth. But at least you admitted to this possibility which is good. And take another look at this verse you offered.
Ephesians 4:10: He who descended is the One who also ascended far above all the Heavens, that He might fill all things. (This is the Verse I was talking about a few pages back, DakotaRed, about Jesus filling all things)
Just what do you think fill means? Some part of His nature? Where is your proof? What Paul was teaching was this:
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) {fill: or, fulfil} 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: {in: or, into} {stature: or, age}
The fillall things in the faith under discussion are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers and such which fill it out, make it functional as an entity called the body of Christ.
How words like fill or in can take on such mystical meanings for Trinitarians demonstrates a mindset not truth, since they are not proof or even understood in the context given by the texts.
Hebrews 1:3: His Son is the Radiance of His Glory, the Very Image of His Substance, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High
This verse makes Jesus another Being entirely not just a Person but a Being in His own right alongside God not in God. No Trinity here, but a close relationship between two separate Beings (not three). And you go on and on like this as if you have evidence for something that will somehow vindicate your cause when all the while perfectly reasonable views exist to refute them without violating other scriptures that speak with much greater clarity on this very matter.
Joseph
SwedishChef

Comparing some Old Testament passages with some New:

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him (Jesus), I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"

Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

Mark 1:1-3 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 8:57,58 "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

Philippians 2:10,11 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus] shall be saved."

Zechariah 12:10 "And I [Jehovah] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Revelation 1:7,8 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Zechariah 14:9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

Revelation 17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

Matthew 26:15 "And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver."
SwedishChef

Dakota, you said:
"One final scripture lifted from the KJV which is the only Bible some wish to follow;
Revelation 3:14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
This word Greek "arche", which is "beginning" in the KJV can be better translated as "source."
Romanized arche
Pronounced ar-khay'
from GSN0756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):
KJV--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
Strongs literal:
14. |2532| And |3588| to the |0032| angel |3588| of the |1577| congregation |2993| in Laodicea |1125| write: |3592| These things |3004| says |3588| the |0281| Amen, |3588| the |3144| Witness |4103| faithful |2532| and |0228| true, |3588| the |0746| Source |3588| of the |2937| creation |3588| of |2316| God.
The Geneva bible notes also say "Of who all things that are made, have their beginning." "The beginning of the creation of God" means "the Source of the creation of God." Jesus is the source of all creation, as John chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1 states.
Earnest

SwedishChef wrote:
What the Bible says:
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
What Herk Reads
John 10:30 " I and my Father are one in will."
I do understand how some come to identify Jesus with God the Father. I think that in doing so they ignore what the Bible as a whole says about both Jesus and God the Father, and they ignore the beliefs held by worshippers of the true God from the time of creation until the time of Jesus. But there certainly are scriptures that speak of Jesus and God the Father in the same terms.
But in order to discuss this sensibly it would help to know just what trinitarians mean by what they say. I have previously attempted to define this by means of the Nicene and/or Athanasian creeds but have had no response. So let us just take this one scripture. I and the Father are one. What does it mean ? What do you think it means ? Does it mean I and the Father are one God ? Or I and the Father are one in nature ? Or I and the Father are one in substance ? Or I and the Father are one in will/purpose ? Or I and the Father are one in mind ? Or...whatever.
And why ?
Earnest

The Trinity

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