The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gumby
    gumby

    I have read several different scholars' opinions and research on 1 John 5:7, and there is so much controversy surrounding that Verse, that I do not use it when I'm talking about the Trinity

    Actually there is controvery of the whole NT. Herk himself said the catholics added the scripture of 1John: 5:7. They could have easily added to many of the other writings couldn't they? Or did God allow just that one error?

    The Church were the bosses over the bible canon. The church became political too. Was there a chance MANY things were forged?

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Gumby,

    If the Catholics corrupted the whole NT, why is there no Verses that support worshiping or praying to Mary or Saints or Icons?

  • gumby
    gumby

    If the Catholics corrupted the whole NT, why is there no Verses that support worshiping or praying to Mary or Saints or Icons?

    Good reasoning UD...but the answer is there. If you would do some MORE re-research on the formation of the church you will see how many things ....as you mentioned......were "ideas" that later developed. They didn't have to be in the scriptures to be the school of thought at the time.

    Many many scholars believe there were many additions such as Paul's "letters", and the "Acts", to give creedence to an Organised Church. There is much written about this if a person would take the time and study it. Most do not want to as they WANT to believe the bible as the infallable Word of God.

    The scriptures do not mention many things that churches/religion had developed into doctrine over time.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    "Calling on the Lord" and "Calling on Yahweh" were talking about Prayer, and if they weren't talking about Prayer, what were they talking about?

    In fact, I don't think I have seen anyone comment on that question.

    Undisfellowshipped,

    Just another example where words like calling, one, in, all, and other simple words are given meanings not intended and are applied in a context other than intended. Expressing our faith is not a sin and calling on Jesus is required. We should all know the context in which theexpression calling is to be understood. The problem is not the communication called prayer by you. The problem is how this calling or prayer is to be understood.

    Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

    Therefore communicating with this High Priest is unavoidable. Yes we do confess Jesus. Since communication with God using the High Priest under the Law Covenant is no longer possible, our communication with God must be directed through our Lord under New Covenant rules. This is not always stated in each verse but it is understood by all in the faith. We now we have a mediator and new High Priest under this New Covenant like this:

    Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. . . 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Not only do such texts destroy the concept of Trinitarianism they also redirect our communication with God through this mediator and our new High Priest.

    Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. {covenant: or, testament}

    So yes we call on the name of the Jesus for such reasons.

    Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    And we entrust our lives to Him.

    Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    Acts 7:59 NIVUS While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

    What you call prayer (and provide no direct text for proof just words such as calling) is this:

    Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    And we do this in the context of High Priest, mediator and savior and the confession of our Faith and not for the purpose of identifying Jesus as being literally part of God in some way. In all this discussion, no one has demonstrated from scripture that Jesus and God are the same Being (not just same nature or one and same purpose).

    Joseph

  • herk
    herk

    UnD,

    You wrote:

    I still see no point in discussing anything with Herk because what I say will probably just be twisted around and turned into something I didn't say.

    How are we supposed to know what you're talking about if you don't give a single example?

    You wrote:

    Herk never even did respond to my important question asking whether or not the Scriptures that say "Calling on the Lord" and "Calling on Yahweh" were talking about Prayer, and if they weren't talking about Prayer, what were they talking about? In fact, I don't think I have seen anyone comment on that question.

    If you will go back to page 30 and two thirds down, you will find that Lew gave a scripturally thorough answer to your question. But you rejected his Bible-based answer. Instead, you feel that your own interpretration of what you found in Strong's overturns the more up-to-date information that Lew presented. And so, you feel that you have every right to see "prayer" as the basic meaning of "call on the Lord," even though that is not the meaning of the Greek.

    Just because you ignore our answers, that doesn't mean we've ignored your questions. And, speaking of questions being ignored, Lew wrote on that page:

    And again I ask, why does Jesus' claim that another is the only true God at John 17:3 go unanswered and get ignored? Do others place so little merit in Jesus' words? Should not his words carry more weight than any of the disciples? If Jesus himself believes another to be the only true God, who can actually follow Jesus and still claim he is the one God mentioned in the Bible?

    You seem to have a fascination with Johannes Greber, even to the point of actually reading page after page of what you believe is demon-inspired information. I have never read what Greber wrote, and I don't care to. Why should it be of interest to Christians?

    It's amusing to me that Greber has become such a big deal to you. Here you have but one man who did not believe in the Trinity and who was also involved in the occult. I suppose you would like us to believe that all non-Trinitarian Bible translators were and are involved in the occult.

    You wrote:

    I would have thought Herk would have commented on those Verses, after all, if Herk is correct about everyone who prays to Jesus is a false teacher, then those Verses would prove that the Apostle Paul and several other Christians were false teachers, and that would be a huge discovery!

    But suppose the opposite is true of what you have written in that paragraph? Suppose it is true that the Scriptures nowhere authorize us to pray to Jesus? Suppose praying to Jesus is contrary to his specific instructions on how to pray? What, then? Doesn't that prove that you are indeed a false teacher? Doesn't it prove that you are twisting the words of Paul and others to make them conform to your own personal whim and fancy?

    The entire Scriptural record testifies that the Father is the only One to whom prayer should be directed. (Psalm 5:1, 2; Matthew 6:9) The evidence is emphatically to the contrary for prayers to Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

    • "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.'" (Matthew 6:9)
    • "Your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:13)
    • "After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 'Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.'" (John 17:1)
    • "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me." (John 17:25)
    • "They lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, 'O Lord, it is you who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David your servant, said, "... The rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ." For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel.'" (Acts 4:24-27) [Here God the Father is called "Lord" and is shown as distinct from "the Holy Spirit" and "your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed."]
    • "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better." (Ephesians 1:17)
    • "For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name." Ephesians 3:14, 15)
    • "In everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:6, 7)

    Plenty instruction is given to pray to the Father, but there is absolutely none that commands us to pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. In some instances, it seems that prayer was offered to Jesus, but a close examination of the Greek terms shows conclusively that no one ever prayed to Jesus. Neither has anyone in the Bible prayed to the Holy Spirit.

    You wrote:

    Also, Herk, your comments about the Trinity being Pagan are not a real good argument at all. I was dealt that lame argument for 18+ years in the Watchtower, so if you think I haven't had that beat into my brains, you're dead wrong.

    My question to you is: What changed your mind? What authorities have you read that show the Trinity did not have a pagan origin? Any well-known encyclopedia will show where the "Christian" Trinity concept originated. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia shows how the "church fathers" wrestled with the doctrine and ended up using pagan terminology to make sense of it.

    You wrote:

    Satan tries to deceive everyone and makes counterfeits of everything that is Holy, so why wouldn't he make counterfeit "Trinities"?

    That makes not a bit of sense. Which came first, the truth God revealed to Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses, or the pagan Trinities? History clearly shows that the first Trinity in history originated on the plains of Shinar in the worship of Nimrod's mother and of himself in the role of father and son. The Trinity was clearly stated among pagan believers, and each member of their Trinities had clearly defined names. But there are no clear-cut similar statements in the Bible. Nowhere do we read, for example, that the ancient Jews worshipped Jehovah and So-and-So and What's His Name. Jehovah alone was God. He spoke of himself as "I" and "me" and "myself."

    You wrote:

    You might as well say that the Flood of Noah is Pagan too because several Pagans believed in a worldwide flood.

    Only a stupid person would make such a remark. Is the Bible wrong because JWs teach that it's the Word of God? Was Peter not an apostle because the Catholic Church says he was? There is absolutely no logic or sensibleness in your foolish statement.

    You wrote:

    I will make this extremely clear, so clear that I don't even think Herk can twist it around: IF 1 John 5:7 was NOT written by the Apostle John, it SHOULD NOT be included in the Bible! IF someone added it later, God and the Bible CONDEMNS that person!

    Who is twisting who? I quoted your exact words. Dishonestly, you now try to have us believe you didn't do some rationalizing with that verse. You now want to hide the fact that your musing was on the fact that it is interesting that "the Word" was used instead of "the Son." There was no reason at all for you to make the comments you made unless you were considering that possibly - just possibly - the verse wasn't added to the Bible, after all.

    Herk

  • herk
    herk

    LittleToe,

    While I have no idea what you're getting at with your question about whether God is a title or a nature, I will say this: According to the Bible, God is both a name and a title. (Psalm 69:30; Daniel 2:20; Romans 2:24; 1 Timothy 6:1; Revelation 16:9) God's nature is divine. (Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20) Ultimately, Christians will also partake of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4)

    You wrote:

    Something else that hasn't been tackled, is this issue. Which Trinity came first? Was it truly the Hindu or Egyptian ones, when we know that Satan loves to counterfeit things?

    History records that the Trinity of ancient Babylon was the first. There is no clear-cut teaching of a Trinity anywhere in the Old Testament. God is never said to be "Jehovah" and "Someone Else" and "Another Someone Else." Jehovah always spoke of himself as "I," "me," and "I myself."

    Why is there so much certainty that the Catholic religion emulated Pagan religions, rather than these religions springing up from an emulation of the reality of God?

    The only way to see no connection between Catholicism's Trinity and pagan Trinities is to ignore history. Even Catholic sources admit the influence of Aristotle and other Greeks among the "church fathers" who formulated the Trinity doctrine.

    Taking that tack, could we not also suggest that the Unitarian concept also has pagan predecessors? After all, those who came to the table at Constantinople, would have been familiar with Zeus. Also, Akhenaton (Amenhotep IV) worshipped Aton

    Yes, those familiar with the Trinity of Zeus, Athena and Apollo were there. But I've never seen anything about the worshippers of the Egyption god Aton being present.

    Herk

  • herk
    herk

    LittleToe,

    You wrote:

    we know that Satan loves to counterfeit things?

    Would you mind telling us some examples of what has been 'counterfeited' by Satan? I'm curious.

    Herk

  • herk
  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Herk:
    I see you continue to twist what others write, and dodge issues. You've not even made an attempt to understand my viewpoint. I even gave you examples, but it would seem that you have no intention of reasoning on the points, but would rather jump up and down like the best of the Fundamentalists.

    It further appears that you lack the experiential aspects of a living relationship with Christ (please, feel free to correct me, if you believe my perception is wrong). I suggest that you consult the writings of "AGuest", for examples of what I mean. I'd also be interested to know if you believe you've had an encounter with the Holy Spirit, since your style and content appear to betray a lack of that (again, I would appeal to you to correct me, if that is a misunderstanding).

    You suggest that there are no clear teaching of the Trinity in the OT. Yet there appears a clear teaching of plurality in "let us make man in our image, in our likeness". This statement surely has three possible meanings:

    • God is plural
    • There are a plurality of gods
    • It wasn't really God who was speaking, but His representative, who was talking to others like him.

    My point of mentioning Aton, is that this is one clear and historically attested example of a Unitarian approach to worship, in a pagan environment. As for Zeus being worshipped in Trinity, I'm afraid you must be one up on me there, because I didn't understand that to be the case at all. I understood him to be worshipped individually, as the father of a pantheon of Gods.

    As for examples of Satan's counterfeits - that question barely deserves this sentence, far less a detailed reply...

    As for my other points, you're given them the scantiest acknowledgement, before sidestepping them entirely.

    But all that, notwithstanding, I still extend Christian love and goodwishes to you.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Recently someone who I was once close to, asked what I believed.(after the gods purpose for man spiel of how adam & eve screwed up and gods been making it right ever since.)

    I have never really tried to write it down, or say it out loud to another person.

    It is just how I feel. So dont rip me a new one over it.

    Thought it might fit in this thread since a lot of people who try and prove or refute the trinity overlook a couple of key issues that I feel are important.

    Well here goes.

    The image of the invisible God. ( ) Hmmmm

    How do you explain to a limited, yet evolving human mind, something that is almighty, eternal, no beginning, no end, all knowing, omnipresent, our creator, our judge etc., etc., yet is invisible?

    How would you comprehend this? Or better yet, how would you teach this.

    Our 5, or some say 6 senses are what humans use to learn/discover. We could be fooled by things we see, yet be corrected by what we hear. You could hear something & realize it is something else by touch or smell. You get the idea.

    In the beginning was the word ( ).

    we need to hear/read this personally to believe, to want to continue to discover whats it all about, why am I here?

    If you have seen me, you have seen the Father ( )

    ..for those who need to hear/read & see to believe.

    Happy are those who have not seen yet believe. ( )

    The most compelling evidence is the feelingand knowing that the Spirit of God resides in your heart. The comforter, counsellor, teacher, etc.

    So man first hears the word. It is handed down from generation to generation, eventually getting distorted as man records it all, fills in the blanks, introduces visual aids etc. Some begin idol worship since they just dont get it. The Law increases with more laws, each time getting farther and farther from the essence of the law. Man has taken over.

    Enter Gods visual aid. We have seen and heard these ideas before and it was already known that this important lesson would come, that would be Jesus (as we have come to call him) in the flesh. Emanuel with us the God.

    Jesus explaining the invisible must be careful that the ones that must see to believe, dont get confused and think that He, in the form of a human is their god. Shows his anger at how so many had got it wrong. The goofy laws (working on the Sabbath), the commercialism (making money off the god idea) the stifling restrictions of the free spirit within each of us (cant help or eat with someone that is not one of us the Samaritan, the prostitute).

    He says that nothing he says or does is of his own human doing, yet what they see is him doing & saying these things. The ones that understand this realize that they identify the invisible, through Jesus the image for our eyes and the word for our ears to believe. He made known the fact that we, as imperfect humans, can have eternal peace, a guilt free conscience, die with the hope of not being internally tormented for the wrongs or the squandering of life we have committed. Embarrassed, ashamed forever.

    True unconditional love, the kind that forgives, and forgives, and forgives. No grudges, no limitations, no tears. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, be truly sorry when you fall short or make mistakes, and learn from them.

    Knock and the door will be open ( )

    Enter the spirit of God. The one who resides within your heart. Ask for guidance, forgiveness, comfort, anything. As the Word of the Visual said, ask anything of Me and I will do it. ( )

    this spirit of God if allowed to live in your heart makes it easy to choose, if you listen.

    Should I kill that person? No, I wouldnt want anyone to kill me.

    Should I screw around on my husband/wife? No

    Should I help that hobo in the gutter? Yes

    Should I give money to feed the hungry? Should I deliver the food personally?

    Should get involved with charities to do good on a larger scale?

    What will I do with my life on earth ?

    Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.( )

    Heaven - paradise, the bosom of Abraham, -- Love & compassion in its purest form.

    Patient, kind, and not jealous. Never boastful, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,..rejoices with the truth;..Love never fails, (like other things prophecy, tongues, knowledge) But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. ( )

    The circle of life, God is love - love conquers all the almighty.

    The infant student needs the laws spelled out. God uses his Word. Some men tell you that that is what you must memorize to know God acquire knowledge.

    The intermediate can learn & identify with visual aids without the aid itself becoming the god. He understands it is God without making a human, or any other image, statue, etc. god, while at the same time using His human qualities to show us as humans the Way and the possibilities and rewards available to us for free. We should be so thankful, full of praise, but some will argue and tell you that you worship a cross or a Man.

    Grow up.

    The adult has learned and invites the spirit of the lesson of God to live inside. Now the flesh means nothing. You are on a different plane the spiritual. Where the minute details of what maob did, or the number of clean animals that went into the ark, blah, blah, is like being bottle fed before learning how to chew. And arguing about it makes me laugh.

    Where 3 identified by Father, Son & Holy Ghost, are all different, they are also the same,

    where 1+1+1 doesnt equal 3 different but ONE 3 different ways.

    All 3 - the invisible, the visible (for our own use ), and the spirit that comes and changes us so that we are now a genuine child of God and born again into the real image of God.

    When they say the path is narrow, you can see why, many sidetracks, hang ups come along, tools discarded, apathy. Some need others to crack the whip & tell them what they can and cannot do because they do not have the belief, the trust, the Spirit, the invisible, inside them (some because man has told them it is impossible crime) to live a life of love and compassion for the sake of the act of love towards others, not because of man's enforced rules but because the law is written on your heart ( ).

    Even the bible follows this progression - from the old baby steps to the new spiritual.

    If someone asked me if I believed in the trinity, I would have to ask first what their concept was. From what I see and have read the old saying

    cant see the forest for the trees comes to mind.

    Just my 2.

    (brackets mean Ive read it somewhere in the bible but do not know which passage and to me it is unimportant)

    Will

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit