by zolensky 55 Replies latest jw friends
maybe i am just not mature enough... im blaming myself and my weak selfish tendencies.
zolensky,
OMG... you need to read this book:
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
Here is a sample from the book... you sound just like the person in the sample:
Edited by - Elsewhere on 9 December 2002 15:29:37
Zol,
If there are hate in the replies it's due to the hate, and hurt we or our loved ones have received at the hands of the organization.
If you want to be a good happy JW you really shouldn't be here. Go back to the meetings. If you want to know the real truth about the Organization, stick around. Read your bible for about a year without the "watchtower helps" and see if your line of thinking doesn't change.
Zo,
One of the strongest teachings of the WT Society is that God works through an organization. He doesn't. Think about this:
For nearly 3/4 of the time since the days of Jesus, from about 250 to 1550, the only two "organizations" on earth that professed Christianity were the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. Neither was God's "organization," and there was nothing like the WT Society anywhere on the planet. Yet, there must have been Christians during all that long period, since Jesus said he would be with his disciples "all the days," even to the end.
Since the Reformation we've had a larger selection of "organizations" to choose from. But every one of them, including Jehovah's Witnesses, was founded and built up by men and women. Jesus didn't come down and tell any of them that they were better than the rest. He just doesn't work through any organization.
It's hard for a JW to accept it, but there are devout Christians in many of those denominations, and there are many who belong to no denomination at all. I would suggest that you seek out Bible-loving ex-JWs and attend church or Bible class with them. If you don't accept the Trinity, there are many among the ex-JWs who are just like you. I urge you to seek them out and see what it is that has led them to have a peaceful relationship with God. If you believe in the Trinity, there are also ex-JWs aplenty who share your belief. Seek them out. I'm sure that you will find that a rich spiritual life beyond your wildest imagination awaits you outside the rigid man-made religion that is run by the corporation known as the Watch Tower Society.
fjtoth
Everybody, I love this guy. Zol, come over here and let me give you a great big wet willy! Every now and then we need someone to show up here and be a shining example of just how destructive the WTS teachings are.
But, frankly, the skeptic in me has doubts about your story. I would normally have expected a JW to have spouted some "but that is no reason to turn my back on Jehovah," or "we must wait on Jehovah to handle these things," or some other such tripe. If you are a JW, then you equate the society with God and his authority. I didn't see you do that.
Also, you are an international student? You are living at a house that wouldn't let you attend meetings? You didn't know this before you went there?
This smells a bit like a scam to me.
Sorry if I am wrong.
I'm not confused at all, nor am I out of the Watchtower because I'm lazy or its more fun. I became a Christian a year before a became a witness. Sixteen years later I took the Watchtower at its word and examined my religion to see if it was accurately representing the Bible. (Of course the Watchtower Society only gives this advice to non-witnesses, JW's are expected to take everything from the society without question). As a result of my research I reached a conclusion that the Watchtower does not teach the real truth of the Bible. In 1989 my wife and I disassociated ourselves because, as good Christians, we could not promote a false understanding of God's Word.
i could not handle all the rules and regulations
Hey Zolensky :) Welcome to the board!
About what you said above, That is one of the main things that bothers me about the Watchtower society. All the rules and regulations! They claim to be christian, but in fact act more like the pharisees in regards to all the regulations that they have. Jesus did not require his followers to obey a bunch of laws. All he wanted is for them to believe in him and to love their neighbors as themselves :) The Watchtower society tries to follow a great deal of the mosaic law, and be christian at the same time. It just doesn't work though! The Jesus portrayed in the bible didn't follow the letter of the law. He was patient and tolerant.
Well hope that you find happiness and peace in whatever path you choose. I'm still looking and learning, which I think is why we are here on the earth.
Take care
Betweenworlds
i stopped going to the meetings back in kenya because i could not handle all the rules and regulations.
The organization has really got you mind fu**ed, don't they, and I say that with the utmost respect. That is exactly what they want you to think and they've used this technique time and time again in their litterature to distance themselves from their false prophesying and deceiving ways and paint themselves as the perfect organization, the paragon of virtue.
Remember, all those RULES AND REGULATIONS are the exact things Jesus railed against the pharisees of his time for burdening the people with.
You should really try putting aside all the self-doubt and distrust of what your heart and instincts are telling you, kick the emotional attachement you have to the Organization aside and dispassionately really look into what they''ve taught both yesterday and today and see the inconsistancies for yourself. You'll find just as we have on the board that there was really nothing wrong with US, but there was a mountain of things wrong with the Organization.
Zolensky, being away from the meetings for only three months is not a particularly long time. You are young, and I can understand your fighting against all of the rules and regulations and then feeling guilt because you, somehow, feel that you are fighting against Jehovah, himself.
Truth be told, Zolensky, most people leave the JWs, not because they don't like the rules and regulations, but because they've learned enough and seen enough to hate the lies, hypocrisy, and "untruth" of the JWs.
I never had any problem with the rules of the Bible. I did, however, have a problem with the lies told by elders, along with the maliciousness and backbiting, and the lack of love, coupled with the hypocrisy of some who were in favored positions being allowed to break as many "rules" as they wanted without repercussions, while others who were not so favored being unduly punished.
Have I found another church or religious group? No....I've found a personal relationship with my God, and is it much better than any proscribed "truth".
Don't just accept the Society's claims about the makeup of the "world" or the proclivities of ex-JWs. Look, read, listen and learn.....then decide for yourself what is true.
Z,
Do you really want the truth about the JW's as well as the information that you will not hear from most all Christian religions? Did you know that a lot of the miracles and stories about Jesus were written about Buddha and Krishna hundreds of years before Jesus supposedly walked the earth? Here is something you might want to look at that will open your eyes a little. I know for a fact you have not heard any of this from the JW publications. Here is the truth presented as factual and historical records. Just thought since you like the truth you might want to hear more of it that you have.
The stories about Krishna were written 600 years before Christ. The stories of Buddha were written 300 years before Christ. Read this and then try to come up with an answer for it without lying to yourself. An example of lying to yourself is telling yourself and others that you do like going out in service.
Have fun.
Dave
There are Many books that explain the culmination of religious myth and how they come about. Two very good ones are Joseph Campbell's "The power of Myth" and T. W. Doane's book "Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions.
Here is a cut and paste of just a few similarities about the myths of Buddha, Krishna, and Jesus that is discussed in some of Doanes writings. This comparison is a "very small part" of the paralleling stories that are identical in Christian, Hindu and Buddhist religious myth.
1.Both Buddha and Jesus were baptized in the presence of the "spirit" of G--d. (De Bunsen, p. 45; Matthew 3:16.)
2.Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. (Ibid., p. 37; Luke 2:41--48.)
3.Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty--seven days and Jesus for forty. (Arthur Lillie, Buddha and Early Buddhism (London, 1881), p. 100, Matthew 4:2.)
4.At the conclusion of their fasts, they both wandered to a fig tree. (Hans Joachim Schoeps, An Intelligent Person's Guide to the Religions of Mankind (London, 1967), p. 167; Matthew 21:18--19.)
5.Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry:
*"When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self--possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty--nine years of age...". (Encyclopedia Americana (New York: Rand McNally and Co., 1963), vol. 4, p. 672.)
*"Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23).
6.Both were tempted by the "devil" at the beginning of their ministry:
*To Buddha, he said: "Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents." (Moncure D. Conway, The Sacred Anthology (London, 1874), p. 173.)
*To Jesus, he said: "All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me" (Matthew 4:9).
7.Buddha answered the "devil": "Get you away from me." (De Bunsen, p.38)
*Jesus responded: "...begone, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10).
8.Both experienced the "supernatural" after the "devil" left:
*For Buddha: "The skies rained flowers, and delicious odors prevailed [in] the air." (Ibid.)
*For Jesus: "angels came and ministered to him" (Matthew 4:11).
9.The multitudes required a sign from both in order that they might believe. (Muller, Science, p. 27; Matthew 16:1.)
10.Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. (Beal, p. x; Matthew 4:17.)
*Buddha "represented himself as a mere link in a long chain of enlightened teachers." (Muller, Science, p. 140.)
11.Jesus said: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law, and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17).
12.According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic's eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. (Ibid., p. 245)
*Jesus said: "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;" (Matthew 5:29).
13."Buddha taught that the motive of all our actions should be pity or love of our neighbor." (Ibid., p. 249)
*Jesus taught: "...love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44).
14.Buddha said: "Hide your good deeds, and confess before the world the sins you have committed." (Ibid., p.28)
*Jesus said: "Beware of practicing your piety before men to be seen by them;" (Matthew 6:1) and "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed..." (James 5:16).
15.Both are said to have known the thoughts of others:
*"By directing his mind to the thoughts of others, [Buddha] can know the thoughts of all beings." (R. Spence Hardy, The Legends and Theories of the Buddhists Compared with History and Science (London, 1866), p. 181.)
*"But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: `Why do you think evil in your hearts?' " (Matthew 9:4).
16.After "healing" a man born blind, Buddha said: "The disease of this man originates in his sinful actions in former times." (Prof. Max Muller, ed., Sacred Books of the East (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1879--1910), vol. 21, p. 129f.)
*"As [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. And his disciples said to him: `Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' " (John 9:1--2).
17.Both were itinerant preachers with a close group of trustees within a larger group of disciples. (James Hastings, ed., Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (New York: Edinburgh T. & T. Clark, 1918), vol. 6, p. 883; Matthew 26:20.)
18.Both demanded that their disciples renounce all worldly possessions. (Hardy, Monachism, p. 6; Luke 14:33.)
*"The number of the disciples rapidly increased, and Gautama sent forth his monks on missionary tours hither and thither, bidding them wander everywhere, preaching the doctrine, and teaching men to order their lives with self--restraint, simplicity, and charity." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883)
*"And [Jesus] called to him the twelve [apostles], and began to send them out two by two.So they went out and preached that men should repent" (Mark 6:7, 12).
19.Both had a disciple who "walked" on water:
*To convert skeptical villagers, Buddha showed them his disciple walking across a river without sinking. (Lillie, p. 140)
*"He said: `Come.' So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus, but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out: `Lord, save me!' " (Matthew 14:29--30).
20."One day Ananda, the disciple of Buddha, after a long walk in the country, meets with Matangi, a woman of the low caste of the Kandalas, near a well, and asks her for some water. She tells him what she is, and that she must not come near him. But he replies: `My sister, I ask not for your caste or your family, I ask only for a drought of water. She afterwards became a disciple of Buddha." (Muller, Science, p. 243)
*"There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her: `Give me a drink.' For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him: `How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?' For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans" (John 4:7--9).
21.Each repeated a question three times:
*"The Buddha next addressed the bhikkhus and requested them three times to ask him if they had any doubt or question that they wished clarified, but they all remained silent." (Encyclopedia Britannica (New York: William and Helen Benton, 1974), vol. 2, p. 373.)
*"[Jesus] said to him the third time: `Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time: `Do you love me?'" (John 21:17).
22.Both received similar receptions:
*"The people swept the pathway, the gods strewed flowers on the pathway and branches of the coral tree, the men bore branches of all manner of trees, and the Bodhisattva Sumedha spread his garments in the mire, [and] men and gods shouted: `All hail.' " (Hardy, Legends, p.134)
*"And they brought the colt to Jesus, and threw their garments on it; and he sat on it. And many spread their garments on the road, and others spread leafy branches which they had cut from the fields" (Mark 11:7--8).
23.Both had an archival:
*"[Buddha's] chief rival was Devadatta, a cousin of the Buddha, who is represented as being jealous of his influence and popularity, and as repeatedly seeking to compass his death." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883)
*"While [Jesus] was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying: `The one I shall kiss is the man; seize him!' And he came up to Jesus at once, and said: `Hail, Master!' And he kissed him" (Matthew 26:47--49).
24.Before his death, Buddha said to his disciple: "Ananda, when I am gone, you must not think there is no Buddha; the discourses I have delivered, and the precepts I have enjoined, must be my successors, or representatives, and be to you as Buddha." (Hardy, Eastern Monachism (London, 1860), p. 230.)
*Before his "ascension," Jesus said to his disciples: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:19--20).
25.When Buddha died: "The coverings of [his] body unrolled themselves, and the lid of his coffin was opened by supernatural powers." (De Bunsen, p. 49.)
*When Jesus died: "And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the L--rd descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone, and sat upon it" (Matthew 28:2).
26."In the year 217 B.C. Buddhist missionaries were imprisoned for preaching; but an angel, genie or spirit came and opened the prison door, and liberated them." (Thomas Thornton, A History of China from the Earliest Records to the Treaty with Great Britain in 1842 (London, 1844), vol. 1, p. 341.)
*"They arrested the apostles and put them in the common prison. But at night an angel of the L--rd opened the prison doors and brought them out" (Acts 5:18--19).
27.Both men's disciples are said to have been miracle workers. (Maria L. Child, The Progress of Religious Ideas Through Successive Ages (New York, 1855)vol. 1, p. 229, Acts 3:6--8.)
-------------------------
Now for the comparisons between Krishan and Jesus
1.Both were preceded by a "forerunner" born a short time before them (Maurice, Hindostan, vol. 2, p. 316; Luke 1:57.).
2.Each was born in a city away from home where his father was on tax business (H. H. Wilson, trans., The Vishnu Purana, A System of Hindoo Mythology and Tradition (London, 1840), book 5, chap. 3; Luke 2:1-7).
3.Krishna was born in a cave (Cox, vol. 2,p. 107).
Jesus was born in a stable (Luke 2:7). However, Quintus Tertullian (third century), St Jerome (fourth century), and other Church fathers claimed that Jesus, too, was born in a cave (Godfred Higgins, Anacalypsis: An Enquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations and Religions (London, 1836), vol. 2, pp. 98-99).
Frederick W. Farrar, Nineteenth-Century Canon: That the actual place of Jesus' birth was a cave is a very ancient tradition, and this cave used to be shown as the scene of the event even so early as the time of Justin Martyr (A.D. 150) (Farrar, The Life of Christ (New York, 1876), p. 38).
4.In infancy, both Krishna and Jesus were sentenced to death by kings who viewed them as pretenders to the throne. Due to this threat:
Krishna's father was warned by a heavenly voice "to fly with the child to Gacool, across the river Jumna (Mons Dupuis, trans., The Origin of All Religious Worship (New Orleans, 1872), p. 134).
Jesus' father was warned in a dream, "...rise and take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt..." (Matthew 2:13).
5.One of these kings then ordered "the massacre in all his states of all the children of the male sex during the night of the birth of Crishna" (J. Swain, Asiatic Researches, vol. 1, London, 1801. p. 259).
The other, Herod, "...sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem, and in all that region, who were two years old or under..." (Matthew 2:16).
6.One of both Krishna and Jesus' first "miracles" performed as adults was the curing of a leper (Thomas Maurice, History of Hindostan (London, 1798), vol. 2, p. 319; Matthew 8:2-4).
7.Urged by Krishna to make a request, a man replied: " 'Above all things, I desire to have my two dead sons restored to life.' Immediately they were brought to life and came to their father" (Maria L. Child, The Progress of Religious Ideas through Successive Ages (New York, 1855), vol. 1, p. 68).
"While [Jesus] was thus speaking to them, behold, a ruler came in and knelt before him, saying: 'My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live....' But when the crowd had been put aside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose" (Matthew 9:18, 25).
8.Either a poor cripple or a lame woman came with "a vessel filled with spices, sweet scented oils, sandalwood, saffron, civet, and other perfumes, and made a certain sign on [Krishna's] forehead, casting the rest upon his head" (Maurice, Hindostan, vol. 2, p. 320).
"Now when Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came up to him with an alabaster box of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head, as he sat at the table" (Matthew 26:6-7).
9.Both washed the feet of their disciples (Maurice, Indian Antiquities (London, 1794), vol. 3, p. 46; John 13:5).
10.Both had a beloved disciple (Charles Wilkes, trans., The Bhagavat Gita, or Dialogues of Crishna and Arjoon, in Eighteen Lectures With Notes (London, 1785), p. 51; John 13:23).
11.Krishna said: "Let him, if seeking God by deep abstraction, abandon his possessions and his hopes, betake himself to some secluded spot, and fix his heart and thoughts on God alone" (Williams, Hinduism (London, 1877), p. 211).
Jesus said: "But when you pray, go into your room and close the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you" (Matthew 6:6).
12.Krishna said: "I am the light in the sun and the moon, far, far beyond the darkness. I am the brilliancy in flame, the radiance in all that's radiant, and the light of lights" (Ibid., p. 213).
Jesus said: "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life" (John 8:12).
13.Krishna said: "I am the sustainer of the world, its friend and Lord. I am its way and refuge" (Ibid., p. 213).
Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
14.Krishna said: "I am the Goodness of the good; I am Beginning, Middle, End, Eternal Time, the Birth, the Death of all" (Ibid., p. 213).
Jesus said: "Fear not, I am the first, and the last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hell" (Revelations 1:17,18).
15.Both "descended" to hell (Swain, Vol. 1. P. 237; I Peter 3:9).
16.Both "ascended" to heaven before witnesses (Higgins., p. 131; Acts 1:9).
17.Both are said to have been God incarnate:
"Crishna is the very Supreme Brahma, though it be a mystery how the Supreme should assume the form of a man" (Wilson, p. 492).
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion; He manifested in the flesh..." (I Timothy 3:16).
18.Before death, Krishna was pierced with an arrows (Higgins, vol. 1, p. 144), and Jesus with a spear (John 19:34).
19.Both were crucified:
John P. Lundy, Nineteenth-Century Reverend: "I object to the crucifix because it is an image, and liable to gross abuse, just as the old Hindoo crucifix was an idol" (Lundy, p. 128).
Thomas Inman, Nineteenth Century Physician: "Crishna, whose history so closely resembles our Lord's, was also like him in his being crucified" (Inman, Ancient Faiths and Modern (London, 1868), p. 411).
20.When Krishna died, it is said that a black circle surrounded the moon, the sun was darkened at noon, the sky rained fire and ashes, and spirits were seen everywhere (Child, vol. 1, p. 71).
When Jesus died, the sun was darkened from the sixth to the ninth hour, graves were opened, and saints rose and entered the city (Matthew 27:45, 51-52).
21.Both were "resurrected" (Dupuis, p. 240; Matthew 28:6).
22."Krishna will return in the end days as an armed warrior, riding on a winged white horse. He will destroy the wicked then living. The sun and the moon will be darkened, the earth will tremble, and the stars will fall" (Chad ,vol. 1,p.75; Williams, Hinduism, p. 108).
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days [following Jesus' "return"] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken" (Matthew 24:29).
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Just something to think about in regard to myths.
Dave
Wow Dave! Thanks for posting that info. That is fascinating :) I'm printing it out.
I'm going through a book now called 101 myths of the bible, which is also very interesting! It's goes through 101 different stories of the old testament and shows how that they were almost certainly derived from various Egyptian, Sumerian and other more ancient stories and myths.
Thanks!
betweenworlds
