silentlambs board gets name change & new ...

by wednesday 76 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

RevMalk

ummm ..... Rev
I really don't know how to approach this subject with you .... I ahh.... just ... well ....
I now see that Bill has NOT hired anyone but may in the future. Okay. On a side bar ... well I would recommend to Bill that he do hire someone as it takes the pressure off any volunteer(s) and puts a "duty" on the person hired to properly maintain it - but that is just me though as I know volunters have lots on their plate at times.

From what Bill has told me, he HAS hired someone, but I don't care, I just made the statement that if he had all this money, he could have helped out the ones around him that were putting their own families and money aside. I had no idea that this of all things I've said would get so much attention. Note:
I am also going to spend some time with him next
week to learn to do more of this myself. Due to the lambsroar forum I
wish to move the website back to marketwizz in about a week that should
be on Monday the 23rd of this month.

I appreciate your assistance in setting up the new website and may still
need to ask you for some tweaks along the way, but I hope you are able
to move on with this in a positive way and keep your family as a first
priority. I certainly do not want to increase you stress level and cost
you anymore money.
Bold added by me. I'm not complaining, just pointing it out. And I don't wish to argue the point, I'm merely statuing a fact, that's all.
I also see Bill is NOT telling people to stay away from this db. Okay ..... well that helps seeing he hasn't told me to stay away from it.
Listen, I can only state what I see, I said I should have kept my mouth shut, but it's too late now. I can only go by what he tells me, and that's all. I can have my opinions of what other people tell me as well. He applies the pressure to stay away from here, point blank. He obviously can't demand it, or I should say, we don't have to listen, but that's what has happened in the past. If you don't believe me then you don't believe me. What can I do? I have private messages I'm reading right now: "You need to stay away from JWD, you're spending too much time there, they will only drag you down". Now I can quote from emails and private messages all day long, but it's not proof of anything. I can copy and paste to my heart's content. I could also edit to my heart's content, just like anyone else, and the bottom line is, there still is no solid proof of what I've said here. And again, I won't argue the point, because I know what the truth is, in my heart, soul and mind, so a debate will serve no purpose. If you think I'm lying or whatever you're getting at, that's fine. Keep in mind I am not trying to be argumentative (just my little disclaimer). You have a right to question what you wish, just as I have a right to post what I know as fact, and my opinions as well.
Question ..... Did you ever say recently that you were planning on quiting the SL web site due to time constraints/family matters etc?
Yes, this is public knowledge. It's also public knowledge that Bill asked me to stay, at least for a while, and that it wasn't fair to bail without notice. He was 100% correct, but also note when he fired me, I didn't get notice. I received notice of when he's moving the site, and that is all. I also received demands last night for work he wants done on the website. Not my place, I'm not the Webmaster anymore, and it's up to him to get that done. For legal reasons I will not enter his hosting account, and I just want that made clear. Also, until he signs off that the design of that site is owned by Meg@Sytes International, and that copyrights will stay, he does not have permission to use that design. I'm not trying to be petty, but LambsRoar uses the same design, and I need to cover myself legally. One day the LambsRoar design may change, but not right now, I don't want a big shock to anyone.....too much change all at once is no good. Also, I'd like to note that I still support the silentlambs cause, and Bill moving the site is his decision. I told him that silentlambs will always have a home at Meg@Sytes, and that still stands true. I never charged him a dime, and will not if he decided to let it remain where it is. Which of course we can bet won't happen, but that's where I stand on this.
Listen, I don't think Bill is evil, and I still try my best to look at the bright side of everything he does. I'm not against Bill, and I'm certainly not against silentlambs. I disagree with him here, and that's all there is to it. Why shouldn't I be able to voice my opinions and feelings? Is this the Kingdom Hall? NO, so a person who fights for this exact right should have no problem with a critic, especially when that 'critic' is only giving his opinion on one thing here. Bottom line, I think he's making a mistake, is that so wrong to say?
Simon

(((RevMalk)))
I know you have put in a tremendous amount of work, effort and your own money into the site for SL and I don't think you have been treated at all well in return - in fact, I would say your treatment has been pretty shoddy. I find it bizzarre and amazing that he didn't include you in any discussion about the future of the forums, never mind giving you so little warning.
Personally, I've found that Silentlambs is one of those things that I really want to support (who wouldn't?) but for some reason it is a lot harder than it should be and I always end up thinking "it shouldn't be this hard to support!".
After a while, the abrupt and insulting email replies do start to get to you and you wonder just why you put up with it. Of course you keep giving the benefit of the doubt and letting things go but there comes a time when you have to draw the line.
There have already been a lot of good people alienated and put-off from supporting Silentlambs and when people like you who have put so much into it are finding it hard to support then alarm bells should be going off. I think there comes a time when giving support no matter what is the wrong thing to do and means that things will never change when it is quite obvious that something does need to change.
Please do not think that you have caused my decision to remove the links - I have based my decision on other things, like you I'm sure, such as private emails that other people don't have party to which is why they will not understand and appreciate the decision.
Silentlambs is not and never should be about one person. Bill has done a lot of good work but he has not done all of it - a lot of people have worked behind the scenes with little or no recognition and brought a lot of publicity to the issue.
I must add that I will continue to support silentlambs the survivors and will still host the videos and any other information that people want to post. I'll email you to sort out what / where you want a link going to at LambsRoar.
hawkaw

Oh ... so you are saying he has hired someone. Okay. I guess I got confused with your post which said he was thinking of hiring someone??? I hope you can understand my humble position on that matter seeing you decided to leave as webmaster - which again - its okay to leave and I obviously support you leaving. But Bill does need something and someone to maintain the site and that is why I do not have problems with him paying someone especially seeing you are leaving or have left (or quit and told to stay and then fired since the db site was closed???). As much as some here disagree with me, I would strongly urge Bill to pay someone to do it if he can afford it for obvious reasons. But that is just me.
And please - all I'm just doing is asking questions, trying to understand what happened and offering my humble suggestions ... Sorry, I don't want to offend you or anyone else.
So what you are telling me is that you, as the SL webmaster, did plan on leaving (ie. quit) SL as a webmaster due to other matters (which is quite okay) while the site was partially completed (which is quite okay in my mind seeing this is a voluntary thing) and you actually did want to leave immediately, but Bill asked you to stay for at least a little while until he could get things in order and asked you to finish some of the stuff you agreed to start ....
.... but ... uh ... he made you leave sooner (ie. apparently fired you) than what you wanted too because he shut down the db part of the web site - did I get that right????? ... And Bill did this in conjunction with a number of people except you because he would be without a webmaster and on his own to maintain everything. And if I get this right ... Bill decided to go a certain way seeing he didn't have (or would soon not have) a webmaster anymore, the negative comments that were originally agreed to not be on the site (as I noted and read myself) and the time was just not there to donate to the db since there are other pressing issues. And just so I get this straight, you would have preferred him to keep the db the way you wanted it without you being the webmaster (and that is okay too as it is your right).
Alright. I think I understand it all. And thanks for trying to get the site up and running to the point you did.
I must say you did a lot of interesting work with the site and I liked it a lot when I was going around in it. I can't thank you enough for all of your effort and its too bad that you don't have the time to donate anymore but I hope you can take care of those other pressing requirements.
And please don't take this post or the last as I am insulting you or threatening you. I just want to understand it all and please feel free to give your opinion as I or others (I hope) do not want to stop you from writing.
hawk
RevMalk

Wow, this is getting deep, and so much to comment on here. I'll try my best though :)
Thank you for your questions and trying to further understand what's happened.
Let me give you a run down of everything that has happened up to this minute.
Bill asked me to work on the site. I agreed. What was 'suppose' (or is it 'supposed'? please someone tell me, it drives me insane) to happen was I would build the shell, and oversee the entire site, and each section would have someone in charge of each section. This was so no-one was overwhelmed. I became overwhelmed when that didn't happen. We bought and installed a script for these people to login at, where they could manage their 'departments'. (you can see the link on the main SL page at silentlambs.org.....scroll to the bottom, and click the link on the right). To my knowledge, no-one has ever logged in there. Why? Because there was no-one to log in, or so I thought up until Trauma and Simon and others said that they volunteered to help out. Ok, so this put it all on me, and my daily lists of demands/duties from Bill. I did it. I put my business on the line (a very faint line nowadays), and my family life as well.Ok, so I was doing what I thought (and still do) was right, since no-one was volunteering, or so I thought. I myself put up a help wanted link on SLD, in which quite a few responded. None that had the needs for what I was doing, but many to help post in the news section, so I sent them to "SLC", which in all reality, she needed more help than anyone, that's a huge section. Now, with my stress level gaining and my mind becoming jumbled, and my family relations becoming threatened, I resigned, in public. At that pint Bill emailed me and said that wasn't fair without notice, and was I sure working on SL.org would continue to effect my family relationship, and so on. I replied and said I'd stick around for at least a while. After that it became obvious that there WAS in fact help out there! At this time, I retracted my resignation, and thought it was a new day where we could ALL help out. And then boom, a day or two later the forum thing comes up. The 'board of directors' had been discussing it for 2 or 3 days I think he said, without informing me, without saying "Hey look, we're talking about this, and this might happen, so don't put yourself out any further on building the forums, at least until we make a decision. No, quite the opposite. Bill KNEW I was working on the forums, he had several requests WHILE he was planning it's demise. That I'm not thrilled about either. Ok, so now we're down to his announcement, and you know the rest from there. I will re-post that thread on LambsRoar is anyone needs it for reference. I've moved it to a forum that is only visible to Administration only because it no longer applies, and will do the same for other threads that may be in the same category, as time allows of course. He is my retraction to my resignation:

I would LOVE to be able to work full time with silentlambs and not have to worry about time and lack of time to spend with my family/business/etc. I would love to wake up in the morning and have no other responsibilities other than helping the abuse survivors. But that simply isn't the case. SLC brought up a good idea (and TH for that matter), by delegating certain duties out. I've tried, and we got a bunch of volunteers for the news section, and much needed help for SLC, but we need more. I had no idea TH had volunteered to Bill. Bill has his hands full, so what I propose is a personnel manager. This idea actually came from SLC as well (she's so smart!). We need a new help wanted section up, which SLC has been after me for some time to get going on. Bill wore himself out and needed help. I have been helping with the site, and I'm finding that even that is too much for one person. At least one person who has to work to make money. Each area of the website needs a director. And then we need volunteers for those areas. Also, site promotion, silentlambs promotion, public awareness programs, grant researchers, and so on and so on......it really never ends. And trying to find volunteers that stick around for these things is nearly impossible. Which brings me to the next step. How do we get more money? Not to sound like this is a money making venture, because it is not, but how do we afford these things? People have to work, they have to feed their families. So what can we do to accomplish all this? Yes, we are in this for the abuse survivors, but again, no-one can do this full time, and the cause needs full and part time employees, that's all there is to it. But Bill surely can't afford a whole staff, even though it's needed.

I have a TON of ideas for all of this and they WILL work. XXXXXXX, you've known me for 30+ years

So, my point is, and XXXXXXX, I think this was originally your point, No matter what people 'want' to do to help, they still have their own lives, they still have to feed their families, so if we really want this to work, if we really want silentlambs to grow, and public knowledge to rise, then we MUST get to the point where we can compensate at least some positions within the organization. That's all there is to it. There's not a well known non-profit organization on this planet that hasn't had to do that. It's a fact of life.

So, to get to this point, it takes certain people that are willing to help out now. If we can finally do what TH is saying, delegating out responsibility, than we'll get there. If not, then we won't. SLC has been instrumental in this effort, and some people who are working with her (sorry, I'm not sure who everyone is over there, so I will leave that up to someone else). And if people are volunteering to Bill, and he hasn't/didn't respond, it's probably because he's not received the message, or he's just overwhelmed. He needs help, I need help, SLC needs help.......we all need to help, anyone that can do anything, whether it be for the site itself, the cause, simply receiving and redirecting non-private information, or what have you. I don't know how Bill has not lost it yet, it's all so overwhelming, and to throw in the emotions that most of us, if not all are feeling, is just a little bit too much. I am ALL for everyone doing a little bit to accomplish alot. I know we can do it together, but we need to find some organization here.

I hope all this makes sense, I just woke up.

So, I guess instead of this being a farewell thread, we can turn it into a "What can we all do together" thread.
_________________
"A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author

Again, I will move this thread back into the arena if requested....
Simon:
Well, I appreciate all that you've said there. I still can't help but to be torn over the silentlambs link, but like I said, it's your site. As for the LambsRoar link, that's very generous of you and the 'silentlambs' are very appreciative of it, I'm sure. Again, under the circumstances I can't help but to feel a bit guilty.
edited - Spelling of course!
edited - To Protect the innocent.
edited - Again To Protect the innocent
Edited by - RevMalk on 16 December 2002 15:49:5
Edited by - RevMalk on 16 December 2002 22:55:6
hawkaw

... Okay ... thanks for the further info and good luck.
hawk
RevMalk

Ok, no problem.
I think I've said enough here so far, probably too much. So, I'm going to drift away from this subject if I can. I have stated my feelings on the whole thing and that's what matters I guess. I am saddened by all this, and I do wish Bill would reconsider, but that's not going to happen. And again, I have no ill-will towards him, what's done is done, and he's doing what he thinks is right as far as I know. So I wish him and silentlambs good luck as well, and I will continue to support the cause.
~ RevMalk ~
Focus

All the best, RevMalk. You are a good guy - as is Bill. The following is no attack on anyone, but may enable readers to see things from Bill's point of view (as I guess it to be: I have not communicated with Bill in any way since the day after I signed up on his forum, which I remember being just a few hours after Simon did).
Let me try to summarize (yes, I have to leave out loads, else it is a rehash). Events are placed in the sequence they happened, rather than the order in which you posted about them here. My comments in red follow the quote, and asides in black.
.
From RevMalk's post of Dec 16, 2002 15:43, one sees that after really demanding duties
with my stress level gaining and my mind becoming jumbled, and my family relations becoming threatened, I resigned, in public. At that pint Bill emailed me and said that wasn't fair without notice, and was I sure working on SL.org would continue to effect my family relationship, and so on. I replied and said I'd stick around for at least a while
So, RevMalk resigned without notice, and Bill felt this was unfair.
Continuing, you retracted your resignation to work on:
He is my retraction to my resignation:
Quote: [..] I spend way too much time on this. I would LOVE to be able to work full time with silentlambs and not have to worry about time and lack of time to spend with my family/business/etc. I would love to wake up in the morning and have no other responsibilities other than helping the abuse survivors. But that simply isn't the case.
And there RevMalk, posting at the time in public, explained some of the pressures on him.
From the same post:
we MUST get to the point where we can compensate at least some positions within the organization. That's all there is to it. There's not a well known non-profit organization on this planet that hasn't had to do that. It's a fact of life.
And there RevMalk correctly points out that one or more paid positions must eventually arise. This means (eventually) using sl's $$. But note, by contracting outside, for which Bill is being criticized here, he is doing something not that different from what RevMalk says must be aimed for any way. This "outside" and "inside" differentiation is not the most important one. Stability and dependability is what is the key, I would have thought (together with $$).
On Dec 15, 2002 10:39 you wrote:
I know for a fact he's instructed his followers to stay away from here, so I imagine it's the same over there
The use of "followers" is a little inflammatory, RevMalk, isn't it? As this is pretty close to a free speech forum, Bill is warning them that problems may quickly arise (as Bill found to his own cost) and if one is unprepared for them... hmmm... An example: the DB-naive sl volunteer who comes here, and out of the blue gets verbally assaulted and abused by a pack of rabid extremists, say, just for repeating what every historian agrees upon happened in the mid-20th century, might "up sticks and leave" the whole ex/anti-WTS community for good.
This said, I certainly hope Bill has NOT done anything like "instruct" people to stay away from here, for I would have an issue with that. Bill certainly did not do that or anything like that with me. Perhaps "suggest some of the drawbacks about posting here" would have been more accurate, RevMalk?
On Dec 15, 2002 10:39 you wrote:
Bill has made two major mistakes here: [..]
2. Firing me - I could have brought him to the top, just like I will LambsRoar.com
I appreciate that this is your perspective. Looking at it from outside, it seems to me that Bill, remembering your earlier resignation handed in without any notice, may have felt pressures on you might build up again and cause a reoccurrence. He wanted unemotional/detached reliability/accountability more than love, drive and enthusiasm, maybe? No suggestion that you are not reliable. But having an outsider might make it easier, for example, to take steps to remedy problems. Say something went wrong which put the site out of commission for a long time. Bill probably views you as a friend, and would not feel able to litigate against you, while there would not be this issue were it an outside contractor. I am guessing here. Bill's words you quoted also suggest he does not want you to sacrifice your family life because of the cause. Am I missing something?
On Dec 16, 2002 16:30 you added
I am saddened by all this, and I do wish Bill would reconsider, but that's not going to happen.
I understand. Keeping up the dialog with Bill would be what I suggest. I concede, as before, that Bill is no diplomat at all, and is at times pig-headed too (Simon's patience, and that of others, has been sorely tried, I know) and a bit of a showman. But, would a diplomat have done what Bill has managed to do, and had the Watchtower's dirty laundry given such a public airing? Yes, he had help for sure; but that does not alter the fact.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion
Try and see how Bill may have seen things. The above commentary from me may help.
PLEASE: Egos and personalities to one side, extremely hard as it is (and harder when the stirrers are there, doing what stirrers do). Instead: ISSUES.
Again, RevMalk, you are a good guy - as is Bill. I am sorry your feelings are badly hurt. It is very hard to see things in perspective while that remains the case. Bill has probably had the same problem too a few times in the past. I am not saying whom I think is right.
Simon, please reconsider placing the link back in due course. Hard as it may be given the provocation.
Let us have a poor analogy. This has nothing to do with silentlambs or RevMalk, but everything to do with restraint and provocation. Recall how I responded to your subtly-expressed public hint, Simon, (well, OK, I could see where it would end anyway, and I was going to do what I did even had there been no hint) when this DB was under multi-thread assault last month, and withdrew entirely from the fray? This despite being the named target of several threats and threads, and me being called a liar, cheat, manipulator, cult-leader, twister of words, coward, person incapable of thinking in an unjewish/one-way-only way, smearer, terrorist-supporter, JW Jew, asshole (well, they got one right, but they underestimated how right) and a lot more? Would have been trivial for me to blow such a sorry, uneducated, clueless and bigoted bunch of buffoons out of the water, but I respected the DB and the MAIN ISSUE (fighting the Watchtower's Wickedness) and stayed out till the outcome I predicted took place, merely helping prepare a warm welcome for the perps in their obvious next venue of choice. Cost to me? Zip. But some may have felt I let down those here brave enough to stand up to the onslaught, by not coming up with masses of data I have to refute the lies and distortions. And I ignored the stirrers who egged on the attacker, and portrayed me to casual readers as being the provocator, the one who had been "condescending" to our poor little misunderstood "love-mongerers", who had hurt their feelings (all this AFTER all the above insults and threats had been given) etc, in even daring to refute their truly shameful, hurtful nonsense.. Same pair of stirrers to be found in this thread. Think we did not notice?
So, Simon, take my suggestion, please... However personally offended you are, and however justified you are, focus on the ISSUES. As I did. Not individuals. However inextricably they are linked. It is truly difficult, but it is possible.
Were I manipulative, I'd say "I know what decision The Watchtower would like you to make." But I will not.
Your call, mate. You are exactly as much my hero as is Bill, You Know. Heroes are for kids.
ISSUES.
--
Focus
(And that is why I'm called Focus (and Asshole) Class)
Edited by - Focus on 16 December 2002 18:46:52
Trauma_Hound

Focus, your forgetting the fact, I've mentioned to him numerous times, I'm unemployed, if I got paid, I would take this on full time, I just can't and haven't been asked to, even though I originally volunteered, yet I still give him server space, and it's alot, because they are video's, and I even set up a streaming server. Is it fair, seeing how I'm unemployed, to pay someone else to do it? When I was doing it for free? When I'm perfectly capable of doing everything he wants to do server side, and on the front end? Sometimes I think Bill thinks that there is only html involved. This is not true, as there are several things that need to happen on the backend, serverside scripting, to automate things.
DazedAndConfused

Personally I feel that Bill has every right to do whatever he feels is right for "the cause." As personalities go...I am not a big fan of Bill. But what does that matter? No one on this earth pleases everyone. Just because I am not a fan of Bill does not mean that I am not in favour of what he is doing (sorry Bill). Bill is doing a great job! Bill is doing what most of us haven't. I don't care what his motives are. I don't care what anyone thinks of him personally. What Bill is doing is something that the rest of us has not done. Kudo's to you Bill!
Now, to the point I was getting to...As far as Bill stating that he is willing to pay someone to take care of this for him makes perfect sense to me.
First off, it is a tax writeoff. Nothing wrong with that.
********Second, there are no "affiliations" or personal feelings between the "founder" and the "webmaster."***********
Big attention here! No emotional attachments mean no hard feelings and no harsh words towards another in the public arena. Believe me, that hurts. (Especially when it is family.)
I can see Bill's side, I can see the other side.
Why does this have to be such a big deal? Bill has made his point as to what he will allow and what he will not allow. Get on with it, do what you need to do. The only thing I ask is that you don't drag someone's name through the mud. I have been living this crap for 2 months (at least) now, and believe me, it is not fun.
Bill has an agenda he needs to work towards and Rev has an agenda he feels he needs to do. Why is there all this fuss about this? Why are links taken off boards? Why do names have to be named? Why?...Why?...Why?
To me, this looks like children in a schoolyard hurling words, (rocks, fists,...etc.) or whatever it takes to become "King of the Dunghill."
Stop already!!!
RevMalk

Dazed?
It seems to me everyone here is (was?) getting along fine and we were doing well getting to the bottom of some issues and feelings and emotions. Seems to me you're the only one here freaking out. I think perhaps you have a hidden agenda here yourself, and I wouldn't suggest going too far with it. Just my 2 cents worth. As for others here, I haven't seen any rock throwing or anything of the sort. Perhaps you should read this over?

silentlambs board gets name change & new ...

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