by dolphman 280 Replies latest social current
Freeman, actually I would have to say you are mistaken. Aztec did not state "immediate profit," she said "profit." Note she referred to profiting from WAR (Bush is affiliated with arms company) and "the controlled flow of Iraqi oil." That may mean taking a loss in the interim, but what he desires is control over the oil, which in the long run would more than likely translate to profit for him.
:-)
Freeman thank you for your kind words. However, they will profit. Anyone who believes the media is painting a WHOLE picture is wrong. We receive propaganda as surely as the Germans did during the Nazi regime. Anyone who believes otherwise is blind!
Back2dafront, it is nice to converse with someone with a brain and an open mind. Thank you!
I am too tired to argue with the rest of you.
~Aztec
Everyone seems to be involved in the heat of the moment: Sadaam is "bad." Sadaam is the legitimate leader of his country. (He murdered his way to power, by the way). The US invasion of Iraq to remove Sadaam is "bad." The US invasion of Iraw to remove Iraq is "good." And so it goes.
So here's a very simple solution: Nuke Iraq. That's right, kill them ALL. If Pakistan or any other Arab Country whines about that, Nuke them, too! That's right. Kill ALL the Arabs who whine. If the USA kills them ALL then one BILLION people (mostly innocent) will be wiped out. Too bad. The next Country who bitches? Nuke them, too.
This eliminates the argument that we are just after oil. With a half-life of a whole bunch of thousands of years, we cannot come CLOSE that oil. It will just sit there unused for hundreds of generations.
Iran whines? Nuke them, too! More oil sitting around for centuries that cannot be touched.
Palestinians who create terrorism in Israel? Nuke them too. Sooner or later, the Arab puke Moslems who hate every else but themselves will get the picture.
Do you think I'm being drastic here? Heck, the Watchtower God is much worse than my tongue-in-cheek scenario, and the militant Muslims are much worse, too. They want to destroy our way of life and bring us all back into the Dark Ages where they live.
Nuke them before they have the ability to Nuke us, because sure as shooting, they will. They have nothing to lose, because they have nothing to begin with.
Farkel
Aztec: You are 100% correct, we are not getting the whole picture and we are indeed being fed propaganda. All nations engage in it. You are one smart cookie.
Back2dafront: T he point I was trying to make was that a full and fair examination of the facts does not support her conclusion. Put another way, her premise is not supported because she fails to meet the burden of proof placed upon her by her assertions.
I do not want to start ripping apart her essay but you are almost forcing me to do that just to prove a simple point with you.
I have had my work shredded many times, so I know of what I speak and Im telling you truthfully the logic here is flawed. Im not going to put her work through the meat grinder as some posters on this db seem to relish in doing because that is not what Im about, but let me show you the types of errors in logic Im talking about with just a little example.
Example:
Ok so lets see what we find here. Dick Cheney WAS Halliburtons chairman. OK Ill go along with that. So now he is not, in fact he is not even a stockholder, he divested remember? So exactly how does Mr. Cheney profit since he no longer has an interest in the company? You have a bit a problem here dont you think?
Then there is the Halliburton / Chevron connection. Well what do we have here an oil services company that has contracts with an oil company. Wow, what do you think the odds are that the worlds largest oil field services company would have Chevron as one of their many customers? Like almost 100% guaranteed I would say. And because they have a contract with them that means what?
Conspiracy , bribery, collusion???
Do you see the flaws?
Im not saying Aztec is wrong, she could be 100% right, however she has not presented a credible case, a fair jury would not hang these guys as Im sure some you would like too.
That is just a small example back2dafront, I could show you more but why, what purpose would it serve?
Aztec, I sincerely mean no disrespect to you, its just that your little essay caught my eye. Probably because it looked like some of the stuff I handed in when I was in school. And then I remembered how my essays always came back all marked up and with more pages of notes attached then my entire original paper. A two-page essay came back with three pages of notes criticizing what just took me hours and hours to write!
In the beginning it made me feel about three feet tall, but then I realized criticism is actually a good and positive thing, its how we learn and become better. If I had the logical reasoning skills back when the JWs were trying to recruit me that I have now, oh boy they would be in trouble! Not only would I be impervious to their sly and deceptive recruitment tactics, but also I may have even been able to drag my recruiter out from that cult.
Anyway thats really all I wanted to say, in fact Ive said too much, I should shut up before I get my ass kicked. Please feel free to slice and dice my post or tell me to just plain shove it. Dont matter I dont offend very easy and Im so dumb I just keep coming back for more anyway J
Freeman
Edited by - freeman on 18 January 2003 22:15:15
Edited by - freeman on 18 January 2003 22:19:13Edited by - freeman on 18 January 2003 22:22:53
Freeman thank you! I am going to work harder tomorrow, okay?
Do I have the burden of proof now?
AYYA!!!!
~Aztec
AZTEC,
In this nation that has the most free press in the whole world, who is behind feeding us "propoganda?"
As to the blind trust for Presidents and vice presidents, that's a well known fact. These guys don't even have credit cards. Their investments are diversivied for the express purpose of them not being able to favor the industries in which their money is invested.
Do a bit of reasearch.
The link where I copied the information asked about was from the Department of Energy link provided by an earlier poster to this tread. You can go to it through that post. or here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html
Edited by - Yerusalyim on 19 January 2003 12:43:21
Yeru,
Thanks for providing that link - these two paragraphs in that same link say it all!
OIL
Iraq contains 112 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, the second largest in the world (behind Saudi Arabia) along with roughly 220 billion barrels of probable and possible resources. Iraq's true resource potential may be far greater than this, however, as the country is relatively unexplored due to years of war and sanctions. Deep oil-bearing formations located mainly in the vast Western Desert region, for instance, could yield large additional oil resources (possibly another 100 billion barrels), but have not been explored. Iraq's oil production costs are amongst the lowest in the world, making it a highly attractive oil prospect.
It is important to note that Iraq generally has not had access to the latest, state-of-the-art oil industry technology (i.e., 3D seismic), sufficient spare parts, and investment in general throughout most of the 1990s, but has instead reportedly been utilizing questionable engineering techniques (i.e., overpumping, water injection/"flooding") and old technology to maintain production. There is also some evidence that Iraq may have damaged its oil reservoirs through use of such techniques and through lack of sufficient investment over a lengthy period of time. Iraq's Oil Minister, Amir Rashid, indicated in early 2002 that only 24 of 73 Iraqi oil fields were producing. Recently, oil consulting firm Saybolt International pointed out the risk of a 5%-15% annual decline in production capacity at (possibly ) damaged Iraqi oil fields.
Seriously dude, if the USA could get Sadaam out of there and somehow take over the oil, we'd be SET. You don't think this is on Bush's mind at ALL?? C'mon...why WOULDN'T Bush be interested in the oil there? We don't have any here, he's not pursuing alternate energy, we need oil from other places. We're going to attack the country with HUGES amounts of a resource we need, and NOT think about their oil? That makes absolutely NO SENSE AND YOU KNOW IT. Please tell me why you refuse to think this has anything to do with oil cuz I'm trying to see your point and I just can't.
In this nation that has the most free press in the whole world, who is behind feeding us "propoganda?"
Here's your answer:
http://progressiveliving.org/media_essay.htm
News Corporation | Owning Corporation | Has Interlocking Board Members With: |
| NBC | General Electric Co. (13th largest "donor" to the Bush campaign) | Allied Signal Inc , American Stores Co, Anheuser-Busch Co Inc, Baxter International Inc, Bristol-Myers Squibb Co (fourth largest "donor" to the Bush campaign), Champion International Corp, Chase Manhattan Corp, Chubb Corp, Citicorp (as Citigroup seventh largest "contributor" to the Bush campaign), Exxon Corp (as Exxon Mobil the 11th largest "donor" to the Bush campaign), Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co, J. P. Morgan & Co Inc, Kellog Co, Kimberly-Clark Corp, Mellon Foundation, PepsiCo Inc (22nd largest "donor" to the Bush campaign), Philip Morris Inc (second largest "donor" to the Bush campaign), Quaker Oats Co, Stanley Works, Textron Inc, Washington Post Co (for other connections with, for example, Microsoftthe third largest "donor" to the Bush campaignsee the NBC web site) |
| Viacom Inc. | Viacom Inc. | AlliedSignal Inc , Avnet Inc, Bear Stearns Co Inc, Duke Power Co, Melville Corp, Nynex Corp, Orange & Rockland Utilities Inc |
| ABC | The Walt Disney Co. (23rd largest "donor" to the Bush campaign) | America West Airlines Inc, Bank America Corp, Federal Express Corp, Florida Progress Corp, Hilton Hotels Corp, K-Mart Corp, Mitchell Energy & Development, Northwest Airlines Corp, Pacific Enterprises Inc, Unum Corp, Xerox Corp |
| CNN | AOL-Time Warner Inc. (8th largest "donor" to the Bush campaign) | Allstate Corp, America West Airlines Inc, American Express Co, American International Group Inc, Aon Corp, Becton, Dickinson & Co, Chevron Corp (as Chevron Texaco the 19th largest "donor" to the Bush campaign), Citicorp (see above), Colgate-Palmolive Co, Cummins Engine Co Inc, Dell Computer Corp, Foundation Health Corp, Genentech Inc, Illinova Corp, Inland Steel Industries Inc, Kellogg Co, K-Mart Corp, Mobil Corp (see above), Olsten Corp, Philip Morris Inc (second largest "donor" to the Bush campaign), Sears Roebuck & Co, Springs Industries, Sunbeam Corp, Triarc Co Inc, Turner Broadcasting System Inc, WHX Corp |
| CBS | Westinghouse Electric Co. | Aetna Life and Casualty Co, Ashland Inc, BDM International Inc, Banc One Corp, Bell Atlantic Corp, Campbell Soup Co, Cardinal Health Inc, Chase Manhattan Corp, Columbia HCA Healthcare Corp, Dell Computer Corp, Dow Jones & Co Inc, Duracell International Inc, General Dynamics Corp, Gillette Co, Harcourt General Inc, Kaman Corp, MBIA Inc, Melville Corp, Pharmacia & Upjohn Inc, Prudential Insurance Co of America, Quaker Oats Co, Phone-Poulenc Rorer Inc, Rockwell International Corp, Sun Co Inc, Union Pacific Corp, Wal-Mart Stores Inc, Warnaco Group Inc, Warner-Lambert Co, Westinghouse Foundation |
| Fox | The News Corporation, Ltd. (12th largest "donor" to the Bush campaign) | Bankers Trust New York Corp, Bayou Steel Corporation, Global Asset Management USA Inc, Hudson General Corporation, MCI Communications, News America Holdings Inc, News American Publishing Inc, News International PLC, Sesac Inc, Times Newspapers Holding Ltd, 20th Century Fox |
Their investments are diversivied for the express purpose of them not being able to favor the industries in which their money is invested.
You honestly believe that? They don't stay president forever either.
Freeman, I guess I see your point. You're too funny. :-)
Back2dafront
awesome, good job.
wasnt able to participate this week. After all the explanations and material youve made available these guys should rethink that maybe they are products of indoctrination and brainwashing of the establisment. The toughest part is allowing yourself to realize that you've been taken. That you've been manipulated.
These guys are samples that the propaganda machine really works!
Dannybear,
any worthwhile endeavor or government in exsistance that has not resulted in the loss of a life.
When was the last time the Canadian army started a war? How about Iceland? New Zealand? Australia? There ARE governments in existance today that you rarely hear about in the news - they stay tucked away in there part of their world and don't cause problems. There are those who'd rather work things out diplomatically and those who'd rather fight first, talk later.
Reality is that it doesn't take war to solve any and every problem in the world. If your neighbor wants to build a fence and you don't want him to build that fence because it detracts from your view out of your window, do you say "if you build it I'm going to kick your butt" or do you somehow try to work out a solution without violence? Some people refuse to negotiate on anything and immediately resort to violence when the problem could be settled differently.
What I see when I look at the world is power hungry people that think too much of themselves and believe money is the most important thing. That's the reality. People will do whatever it takes to have power and money, and if that means nuking a whole country, then so be it. "Nuke all the Arabs, we don't care!" Evidently, this is the reality of the hearts of the world, and that's what's so disheartening. People have lost the ability to show compassion to a fellow being. Maybe it's because they were never loved, so they haven't learned how to love. Shoot, who knows.
And btw, I am prepared to live off the land, and if you're not I don't know what you're waiting for. You better take a long hard look at what's developing in this country because reality could change any minute.
I would like to interject a thought at this point in the discussion:
I very much appreciate the tone of the recent posts. We have here people who take opposite sides of a very passionate issue and are able to argue their points without name-calling, condescension, sarcasm, or profanity.
This is the only way we can understand the position of those who disagree with us, and hopefully find a way to find a solution, or at least a common ground. Perhaps some day, our government leaders will evolve to the point where they can do the same.
I hope Yeru will be looking for other employment as a result.
